Airsoft Arizona
Off-Topic Forums => Real Firearms => Topic started by: LaserRacer on June 25, 2007, 11:25:04 PM
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Hey I was wondering if anybody has had any experience with the Walther P99?
I have been looking at handguns for a little while, trying to decide what I want to get myself for a concealed carry firearm.
I would like to start carrying soon so that I am used to it in a few years when I qualify as an armed crewmember (airline pilot).
For years I wanted a 1911, but after much thought I decided that I wanted a double action for carry purposes. At this point the idea of having one in the pipe and the hammer back seems like a dangerous one.
So anyway, to make a long story short I decided that I liked the feel of the P99. I also was led to believe by a few LEOs back home that it is best to carry something in .40SW or .45ACP.
So my questions to all of you...
1: Experience with the P99 (especially in the .40)
2: Any other handguns you would recommend for a first concealed carry?
Thanks for all of your help.
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Glock 19
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Glock 19
"All handguns should be Glocks, all glocks should be 9mm, all 9mm Glocks should be model 19"
-James Yeager
Tactical Response
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Glock 23
Sorry guys... I love my 40....
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Glocks are like the "General Motors" of handguns. They're cheap, reliable, and everybody and their mother owns one...
"oh, you own a glock, how ordinary..."
As for me, my conceal carry, I'm leaning toward a Beretta 84. It's a 380 auto. Very accurate, very easy to shoot, but about 200f/s slower than a normal 9x19. Plus, my family is all about Italian products, so we already own 3 Beretta pistols. We wops have to stick together.
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Either the Glock 23 or the Glock 27 the only difference is that the 27 is pretty much the compact model of the 22/ 23, both .40 S&W, I have failed to find a better handgun than a Glock
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USP Compact
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I actually prefer the Springfield XD .40 over the G23/27. It feels a little better balanced to me due to the slide being slightly heavier (IMHO). I have 2, a 4" and a 3". The 3" is better for Concealed.
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My brother has a Smith & Wesson M&P .40. That's not bad for concealed either.
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My brother has a Smith & Wesson M&P .40. That's not bad for concealed either.
Im actually looking into getting that gun myself, i wanna try one out at like Shooters world but im intrested in getting it
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It's not a bad gun, the replaceable grips are nice and all. I'm just concerned about their QC. His hammer pin has this annoying habit of quickly working it's way out of the gun. You have to keep an eye on it, then he has it hammered back in.
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I actually prefer the Springfield XD .40 over the G23/27. It feels a little better balanced to me due to the slide being slightly heavier (IMHO). I have 2, a 4" and a 3". The 3" is better for Concealed.
very true. the 3 inch XD 45 ACP is very concealable and is very good with recoil
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Wow...Gotta say I didn't see that coming.
I went to a range a while back and fired a glock 17 and was less than impressed. I found that I was shooting far better with a springfield 1911. I would assume that the glock had been pretty thoroughly shot out.
I guess based on the responses I am getting so far, maybe I should try one again.
As far as the XD, That was another one of the guns I was eyeing, haven't had the chance to shoot one, but it seemed to fit me fairly well. Also, I did like the fact that it has a grip safety.
I had't even heard of the S&W M&P 40 I guess that is another one to look into.
Thanks for all of your help.
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They said Glock 19 or 23. No where did I read someone talk about the 17 except in your last post. I would try those out instead of the 17 again if you didnt like it the first time.
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I know, after firing the 17 I made the mistake of painting all glocks with the same brush... what I meant to say was I should try firing a glock again...not necessarily another 17.
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Wow...Gotta say I didn't see that coming.
I had't even heard of the S&W M&P 40 I guess that is another one to look into.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_ ... tomatic%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_M%26P_%28semi-automatic%29)
Wikipidia is your friend :)
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All in all, it's not a bad gun for the price. Definitely worth checking out anyways. I would go with the .40 3.5" version if it was me.
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S&W .38 hammer less. Works great and i dont complain.
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I was a huge glock fan but i converted to the XD's better balance and a heavier slide. Pretty much i just have better groupings with my 4in XD .45 then my glock 22
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Walther PPK/s .380 auto
Super light, small, concealable, and Bond looking!
I have it "in the pants", and wear fitting t-shirts etc. and people are surprised if I tell them I'm carrying.
Even though .380 isn't as powerful as 9mm, when you get hit with any bullet, you tend to either turn and run, bleed, or cover your ringing ears.
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I have a friend who has a KelTec .380 i cant recall the name however is small enough to fit into your palm and can be hidden just at anywhere, pretty cool gun. ill see if i cant find the name.
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I have a friend who has a KelTec .380 i cant recall the name however is small enough to fit into your palm and can be hidden just at anywhere, pretty cool gun. ill see if i cant find the name.
P3AT
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i have seen several kel-tecs with jamming problems.
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I was a huge glock fan but i converted to the XD's better balance and a heavier slide. Pretty much i just have better groupings with my 4in XD .45 then my glock 22
Thats because you are 8 1/2 feet tall and have meathook hands bro....
8)
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that could be the reason. plus with 13+1 of .45 you cant go wrong
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You said "For years I wanted a 1911, but after much thought I decided that I wanted a double action for carry purposes. At this point the idea of having one in the pipe and the hammer back seems like a dangerous one"
Look if that is your reason don’t buy a Glock. They have no lever safety. They have what is called a safe action trigger, but it’s no longer safe once you touch the trigger /trigger plunger. Not that you should be touching it anyway if you are not intent on destroying your target. I like the glock for many reasons, but I find 1911 is the way to carry. Yes the hammer is cocked with one in the Chamber. But you have a lever safety and what is called a secondary grip safety. If one has the lever safety off you can still pull the trigger as long as you’re not griping the handle and it won’t fire.
I own a Springfield 1911 .45ACP
Glock 17C 9mm
And I have owned a sig P226 .357/.40
The Springfield is what I carry, and love .45ACP it’s the only way to drop what needs to be stopped.
Glock 17C 9mm great for accuracy but not safe for carrying because of the ported barrel. Go only with the regular standard barrels if you get a Glock.
I loved the Sig and plan on getting another one, but it has to be in .45ACP for myself. The Sig is what I would recommend as a double action. It does not have a safety, but with a 9 pound trigger pull if the hammer is decocked makes it safe enough. Also the auto decock lever dropes the hammer safely. Comes in 9mm, .357sig, .40, 45ACP. If you get for example a P226 in .357 you can also get the extra .40 barrel for it, and shoot bolth types of rounds when ever you feel the need.
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Walther PPK/s .380 auto
Super light, small, concealable, and Bond looking!
I have it "in the pants", and wear fitting t-shirts etc. and people are surprised if I tell them I'm carrying.
Even though .380 isn't as powerful as 9mm, when you get hit with any bullet, you tend to either turn and run, bleed, or cover your ringing ears.
i agree with the .380, but when it comes to weapons the Beretta 84 fits my hand much better than the ppk. 10+1 .380. whereas the XD 3inch is 13+1....hmmmmm. oh, and it's a .45.
my first choice would still be the beretta. the XD is a .45 and all, but the beretta is still more easily concealed, on account of my size, i dont have a lot of room to work with. 5'6" at 140lbs. the XD is a little too fat to be concealed on my frame
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With a good holster any gun is pretty concealable. I am a skinny guy and I have my glock 19 in my waist with a tshirt covering it, it dissapears.
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Personally I ruled out the glocks based on their feel. Too clunky and square for me, the XD has a bit more ergonomic grip (not a lot, just a bit) that happens to fit my hands very well. I don't worry about misfires because I only carry in a holster with a trigger guard, and I don't put my finger on the trigger unless I'm going to pull it. I like the grip safety, but it wasn't a prime decider.
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Personally I ruled out the glocks based on their feel. Too clunky and square for me,
If you dont grab the slide, the rest of it is pretty ergonomic.
One of the main things that I heard about the glocks versus other hand guns is the angle that your wrist is at when firing. With the glock you have to point more down because the handle is angled more than other guns (XD, USP etc..). But I dont care, I trust my glock, it is my friend.
When it comes down to it, handguns nowadays are like midsize/price cars, they are all about the same in reliability and price, some have a few more bells and whistles than the other but all in all they work great and you realy cant go wrong with any of them.
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Glocks rock because you can basically just swap out the barrel and use a different mag and change calibers at will.
I have a 32c, and can swap in a .40sw barrel and even use the same mags and shoot .40 ammo, or swap mags and barrels and shoot 9mm for training/while at work.
I like the compensated barrel too, not sure why the other guy doesnt think it safe, it slightly increases on target repeat accuracy with a higher recoil round like the .357 sig.
the .45 GAP round available in some glock models is a pretty amazing round, same ballistics as a .45acp but smaller round size so smaller grip size.
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Glocks rock because you can basically just swap out the barrel and use a different mag and change calibers at will.
I have a 32c, and can swap in a .40sw barrel and even use the same mags and shoot .40 ammo, or swap mags and barrels and shoot 9mm for training/while at work.
I like the compensated barrel too, not sure why the other guy doesnt think it safe, it slightly increases on target repeat accuracy with a higher recoil round like the .357 sig.
the .45 GAP round available in some glock models is a pretty amazing round, same ballistics as a .45acp but smaller round size so smaller grip size.
A ported barrel, in self defense applications, is dangerous.
It can send hot gasses and residue into your eyes, if shooting from presentation; it is disorienting, if not blinding, at night.
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http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=7&productid=77
This was designed for consealed carry. Its been deburred so that it doesn't snag on ones clothes. Plus its a Sig ... :D
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Of course it's a Sig, so it's also over priced.... :)
Unless you consider $1k a bargain. No, I think I will take a USP Compact instead and spend the extra $200 on ammo.
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Sorry for the necro...but it's my thread and I have finally come to a decision. After much research and careful consideration (mainly to the level of my wallet) I came to the decision to go with the Springfield XD Service in .45ACP. It may in the end turn out to be too large for concealed carry, but for my immediate needs I felt that it was what I was looking for. Thanks guys for all of your help.
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Adding my two cents late I know.
Since you are looking at going into a specific line of work that would have you carrying a handgun, have you done any research to see if they have requirements or restrictions?
For example, they may not allow some calibers due to penetration issues, types of bullets, etc. There might be both minimum and maximum standards that a gun and round have to meet before being allowed.
I believe you mentioned airlines. You might check the ejection path of the casings from the gun. It is generally something right hand people don't think about, but I am left handed, so am very aware of where those hot casings are going. In a tight environment like an airplane, it is something to think about.
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Thanks for your input, I did consider what the airlines would have me carrying (I have several friends in the program...they aren't allowed to say much about it). So unfortunately I was unable to determine what the constraints were for firearms in the program.
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I gotta throw in my 2 cents. Glock 36 (.45 ACP). Small frame, big bore power. Low mag capacity (6+1). Not much less than a 1911 though. I've put over 900 rounds through mine without cleaning it, and encountered no problems.
What stance do you shoot from Laser Racer? I find the Chapman stance much more effective than the Weaver when shooting my Glocks.
If you learn to "rock" a glock trigger correctly, you can stop it right at the point of reset, enabling faster follow up shots.
Just one man's opinion.
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All I have to say about this topic is that if you are uncomfortable carrying a loaded gun with one in the chamber with the hammer cocked, with proper safeties in place, you should not be carrying a gun, especially concealed. I don't think that many people think and consider the emotional/mental power and preparation it takes to use a gun in a dynamic situation. Before buying a gun "just to carry it" to feel that rush to your ego, consider and ponder on the fact if you truly can take another's life when by sheer accident/coincidence you are in a moment in time when that kind of force is needed.
Guns are great, and a lot of fun, but I fear that too many people buy them and carry them just to feel "cool." Consider if your truly ready to make that decision in your life that will affect you forever and all those you love, and then I think one is ready to buy, train and prepare for that once in a life time moment that no man longs for.
And if you do decide that this responsibility part of yours to carry, buy a Glock and make it a .357 Sig or above. Not a pansy 9mm.
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theres only 1 choice, the Springfield .45XD Compact. It uses 10rd mags for concealed carry as well as 13rd mags if you can hide it, backup, or for open carry. It shoots very nicely and they come with allot of nice accessories. I have put over 4k round through mine and had only 3 ftf and 1 smoke stack. the ftd was caused by the lead swc. The only upgrades I would suggest you get is a 4# trigger and polish the feed ramp.
EDIT: I would not go with the .45GAP for reasons that its a much higher pressure case, which mean that there MAY be reliability issues. BUT the REAL factor is, the price of Friggin ammo for it!!! lol ammo for the ACP can be had anywhere ALLOT cheaper, while the GAP can be a PIA as well as the general price is much hight.
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All I have to say about this topic is that if you are uncomfortable carrying a loaded gun with one in the chamber with the hammer cocked, with proper safeties in place, you should not be carrying a gun, especially concealed. I don't think that many people think and consider the emotional/mental power and preparation it takes to use a gun in a dynamic situation. Before buying a gun "just to carry it" to feel that rush to your ego, consider and ponder on the fact if you truly can take another's life when by sheer accident/coincidence you are in a moment in time when that kind of force is needed.
Guns are great, and a lot of fun, but I fear that too many people buy them and carry them just to feel "cool." Consider if your truly ready to make that decision in your life that will affect you forever and all those you love, and then I think one is ready to buy, train and prepare for that once in a life time moment that no man longs for.
And if you do decide that this responsibility part of yours to carry, buy a Glock and make it a .357 Sig or above. Not a pansy 9mm.
you need to grow up and smell the shit around us.
I did have a guy try to mug me once. luckily I was on my bike with a BIG ass lock and chain that I used to break his jaw with. That sob is still eating through a tube and next time someone jumps me I will be prepared to defend myself.
They cops are there to clean up the mess, not to defend you. I dont know where people started thinking that the police are here to hold your hand and kiss you good night. They can NOT respond fast enough to protect us. One must take ownership of their life and be prepared to defend yourself in the gravest of times.
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All I have to say about this topic is that if you are uncomfortable carrying a loaded gun with one in the chamber with the hammer cocked, with proper safeties in place, you should not be carrying a gun, especially concealed. I don't think that many people think and consider the emotional/mental power and preparation it takes to use a gun in a dynamic situation. Before buying a gun "just to carry it" to feel that rush to your ego, consider and ponder on the fact if you truly can take another's life when by sheer accident/coincidence you are in a moment in time when that kind of force is needed.
Guns are great, and a lot of fun, but I fear that too many people buy them and carry them just to feel "cool." Consider if your truly ready to make that decision in your life that will affect you forever and all those you love, and then I think one is ready to buy, train and prepare for that once in a life time moment that no man longs for.
And if you do decide that this responsibility part of yours to carry, buy a Glock and make it a .357 Sig or above. Not a pansy 9mm.
you need to grow up and smell the s*** around us.
I did have a guy try to mug me once. luckily I was on my bike with a BIG ass lock and chain that I used to break his jaw with. That sob is still eating through a tube and next time someone jumps me I will be prepared to defend myself.
They cops are there to clean up the mess, not to defend you. I dont know where people started thinking that the police are here to hold your hand and kiss you good night. They can NOT respond fast enough to protect us. One must take ownership of their life and be prepared to defend yourself in the gravest of times.
you're both right, why the animosity?
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All I have to say about this topic is that if you are uncomfortable carrying a loaded gun with one in the chamber with the hammer cocked, with proper safeties in place, you should not be carrying a gun, especially concealed. I don't think that many people think and consider the emotional/mental power and preparation it takes to use a gun in a dynamic situation. Before buying a gun "just to carry it" to feel that rush to your ego, consider and ponder on the fact if you truly can take another's life when by sheer accident/coincidence you are in a moment in time when that kind of force is needed.
Guns are great, and a lot of fun, but I fear that too many people buy them and carry them just to feel "cool." Consider if your truly ready to make that decision in your life that will affect you forever and all those you love, and then I think one is ready to buy, train and prepare for that once in a life time moment that no man longs for.
And if you do decide that this responsibility part of yours to carry, buy a Glock and make it a .357 Sig or above. Not a pansy 9mm.
you need to grow up and smell the s*** around us.
I did have a guy try to mug me once. luckily I was on my bike with a BIG ass lock and chain that I used to break his jaw with. That sob is still eating through a tube and next time someone jumps me I will be prepared to defend myself.
They cops are there to clean up the mess, not to defend you. I dont know where people started thinking that the police are here to hold your hand and kiss you good night. They can NOT respond fast enough to protect us. One must take ownership of their life and be prepared to defend yourself in the gravest of times.
you're both right, why the animosity?
listen, I pray that I NEVER have to pull it. Yes I have had my hand on the the grip acouple of times, but I always find ways to get out of the situation.
agree with the guy when he was talking about being 'locked and cocked' then they should NOT be carrying one.
Now to the .357 myth9mm myth. Look at your loading data, they are basically the same; that is, they both are NOT good tactical cartridges. Theres a reason why the military went from a .38 special to the 1911 .45ACP. Then some numb nut decided to to BACK to the 9mm. (about the same as a .38 Special), and now they are going back to the .45. Also special forces have continued to use the .45 due to its stopping ability
I dont want to go into the whole history and why ALL of the changes have happened and why, but I will stated this. In WWI our gi's where unloading their sidearm .38's in the the chest of the tribal warriors and Japs killing them, but not before they stuck a spear in the chest of the gi. When they faced the .45ACP it put their ass DOWN. Now in a defensetactical situation you need to be able to put that SOB down and I mean put them down NOW! The reason for the 9mm was the idea, "Oh we can carry more ammo which means more kills." they where wrong. Its the same reason the military is looking at 86'ing the 5.56 and going to a 7.62.
I dont feel like typing anymore. I have been up to long and 5am comes very fast.
Oh and I dont mean to appear to be abrupt. With online communication allot in lost. We do not have non-verbal communication to help guide us to the true meaning and understanding of the speaker. When talking face-to-face we have non-verbal communication to go on, but when online we lose that, hence to reason smiley's where invented. It can be difficult at best to get a handle on the situation, especially when someone from a high-context society trys to communicate where non-verbal communication is non-existent. I ment no dis-respect and apologize if you where offended.
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9mm is not a good tactical round?
Then why is the most popular submachine gun in the world the MP5, a 9mm weapon?
I am currently reading "The Finishing School" by Dick Couch.
This book is about what happens AFTER BUD/S. For this part, he is following class 2-02
He says, and I quote,
"The MK23 is a special 45 caliber pistol made to SOF specifications by Heckler & Koch. Both of these weapons(I skipped including the 357 revolver-GB)have their advantages, but are of limited use for SEALs.The secondary weapon in the teams, by issue if not by choice, is the Sig Sauer P226, a 9mm pistol".
Some people prefer the 45 and yes, it does have more stopping power than a 9mm, but the difference is something like 2%. In other words, in 2% of engagements, the 45, with one round, stops what the 9mm didn't with only one round. However, the 9mm can give 16 rounds vs the 7 rounds of a 45. 2% more stopping power, or 9 more rounds. Personally, I chose the extra 9 rounds.
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"The MK23 is a special 45 caliber pistol made to SOF specifications by Heckler & Koch. Both of these weapons(I skipped including the 357 revolver-GB)have their advantages, but are of limited use for SEALs.The secondary weapon in the teams, by issue if not by choice, is the Sig Sauer P226, a 9mm pistol".
This is absolutely correct. The SEALS have a contract for special production 226's, which are available for civilian purchase. Some operators do prefer the .45, as I do(i'm obviously not an operator by the way), but empirical evidence shows the higher capacity 9mm to be a better option for tactical situations. As for the .38 in military service, it followed the .45. There were issued .45's and .38's in Viet Nam, then after only .38's. THEN they moved to the 9mm relatively recently. My very first 1SG told me about using a .38 when he joined.
Not sure what they used in WW 1, you might be right that it was a .38. But my Grandfather tells me that our soldiers weren't just collecting Lugers for fun in WW 2, they were using them instead of their issued .45's. They just liked them better. Of course, that was just my Granddad's observation, not exactly a historical fact.
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9mm is not a good tactical round?
Then why is the most popular submachine gun in the world the MP5, a 9mm weapon?
I am currently reading "The Finishing School" by Dick Couch.
This book is about what happens AFTER BUD/S. For this part, he is following class 2-02
He says, and I quote,
"The MK23 is a special 45 caliber pistol made to SOF specifications by Heckler & Koch. Both of these weapons(I skipped including the 357 revolver-GB)have their advantages, but are of limited use for SEALs.The secondary weapon in the teams, by issue if not by choice, is the Sig Sauer P226, a 9mm pistol".
Some people prefer the 45 and yes, it does have more stopping power than a 9mm, but the difference is something like 2%. In other words, in 2% of engagements, the 45, with one round, stops what the 9mm didn't with only one round. However, the 9mm can give 16 rounds vs the 7 rounds of a 45. 2% more stopping power, or 9 more rounds. Personally, I chose the extra 9 rounds.
dont have much time since im at work, but my .45 is 13+1 not 7. And the .45 is more than a 2% increase. When I get home I will get my loading manuals out and crunch the numbers for you.
Also, mp5 in 9mm. The reason for that is 1)capacity, 2)Recoil, 3) its a selective fire. Your pistol is a semi-auto, 3 9mm rds to the chest is better than 1 .45 or 1 9mm. We are not comparing smg's here so lets get back on topic with pistols.
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I mentioned the MP5 as a direct rebuttal to the post that 9mm is not a good tactical round. An MP5 is a close-in weapon. If the 9mm wasn't a good round for stopping someone, then why is a weapon that uses it the most popular weapon in the world for close in fights? It is a sound round. If the 45 was so vastly superior, why isn't the most popular SMG in the world shooting it? You can't tell me they expect the user to fire 3 rounds of 9mm vs just one from a 45.
Of course, if you want the BEST round, then according to the FBI, that is the 10mm using a 180gr JHP
According to the FBI, the 9mm does not meet their requirements due to penetration. It does not penetrate 12 inches into ballistic gel often enough (67.5%) when doing testing. An example of a test firing is a 10 foot shot through an auto glass windshield angled at 45 degrees, then into ballistic gel covered by t-shirt material and flannel material. Pass/fail was 12 inches (wow). The average penetration was 13.84 inches across all tests for the 9mm.(45 was 92.5% with average of 19.95 inches while the 10mm was 97.5%, 17.9 inches average).
I love this quote from the FBI article in regards to the 9mm
It is woefully inadequate for shooting people in cars and over half of our shootings involve vehicles
and another
We have shot half a dozen dogs in the past year and not killed one yet, although we have run up a significant veterinary bill. The 9mm with proper ammunition is not a bad round
*all numbers and quotes taken from FBI 10mm notes from SSA Urey W Patrick, Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico VA
(in regards to the 2%, I read an article about a year ago that said in defensive shootings, that 45s had something like a 90% success rate of stopping the perp, while the 9 mm was at 87% or 88%. The percentage difference between the two rounds was very low)
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The way I see it, you're both right in your own ways. Caliber (and the consequential terminal ballistics involved) is really more of a personal preference. Who cares if it's 9mm or .45, and how many layers of glass or gel it penetrates? Accuracy and reliability are far more important than capacity, penetration and knock-down power any day of the week. Go with what's comfortable and familiar. No matter what an agressor get's shot in the face with, it'll hurt.
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No matter what an agressor get's shot in the face with, it'll hurt.
that made me giggle.
I have a .38, 9mm, and a .45 that I carry with regularity, and I'm more of a round over caliber. Loaded with the right rounds for the right situation, you're deadly with anything.
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Now I am completely uneducated on the different capabilities of particular round, but wouldn't even a 22 make someone consider if its worth getting shot, hurt, or even stop someone? I'm just thinking here...
Now I am sure different rounds excel in certain situations, but to me the size of the bullet is more of an emotional attachment, if I was going defend myself with a 22 I am sure I can, granted its not going go through a tank, or even body armor, but how many punks do you see with that?
As for carrying, I agree with Vanilla, you comfort with the weapon is going be more of a value.
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No matter what an agressor get's shot in the face with, it'll hurt.
that made me giggle.
I have a .38, 9mm, and a .45 that I carry with regularity, and I'm more of a round over caliber. Loaded with the right rounds for the right situation, you're deadly with anything.
Even a .177 fired from a Daisy pump action airgun? :P
I heard Reagan got hit with a bunch of .22s but didn't notice it till later.
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deterrant yes, but if the gun actually has to be used, you have to be conscious of what round you are carrying. A young woman decided that the best way to make money was to stop selling her body at a truck stop, and instead rob the truckers. She pushed a trucker up against his truck and cut his throat, but not before he fired off the entire mag of his 22 pistol. She didn't even realize she had been hit, and went back into the truck stop to look for another victim, where the police found her sipping a cup of coffee. This in no way knocks the caliber itself, but if he had spent a little more money on the rounds for carrying, then he would have put her down.
P.S. I've never carried a 22, so I have no idea what would be an adequate round for that gun, but I imagine shoving the gun in their gut or chest to either side of the sternum and firing a glaser would do the trick. I obviously don't know this for certain, so don't run out and buy glasers.
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And I've just been told that these rounds can bring the righteous thunder.
.22LR Aguila Super Max Hyper Velocity Hollow Point
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Friends don't let friends carry .22. Of all the common pistol rounds, it is the only one that will *not* consistently stop a threat (if you shoot the right part of the bad guy). The round is too light, but more importantly there isn't near enough powder behind it.
I carry a 9mm, on the theory that I don't have perfect aim, so maybe those 15th-17th rounds will make a difference. I am also significantly better at coming back on target with it than with .45. I can put 3 rounds of 9mm in the upper chest quicker than I can put 2 of .45.
edit: .22 and .22LR aren't the same round
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I mentioned the MP5 as a direct rebuttal to the post that 9mm is not a good tactical round. An MP5 is a close-in weapon. If the 9mm wasn't a good round for stopping someone, then why is a weapon that uses it the most popular weapon in the world for close in fights? It is a sound round. If the 45 was so vastly superior, why isn't the most popular SMG in the world shooting it? You can't tell me they expect the user to fire 3 rounds of 9mm vs just one from a 45.
Of course, if you want the BEST round, then according to the FBI, that is the 10mm using a 180gr JHP
According to the FBI, the 9mm does not meet their requirements due to penetration. It does not penetrate 12 inches into ballistic gel often enough (67.5%) when doing testing. An example of a test firing is a 10 foot shot through an auto glass windshield angled at 45 degrees, then into ballistic gel covered by t-shirt material and flannel material. Pass/fail was 12 inches (wow). The average penetration was 13.84 inches across all tests for the 9mm.(45 was 92.5% with average of 19.95 inches while the 10mm was 97.5%, 17.9 inches average).
I love this quote from the FBI article in regards to the 9mm
It is woefully inadequate for shooting people in cars and over half of our shootings involve vehicles
and another
We have shot half a dozen dogs in the past year and not killed one yet, although we have run up a significant veterinary bill. The 9mm with proper ammunition is not a bad round
*all numbers and quotes taken from FBI 10mm notes from SSA Urey W Patrick, Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico VA
(in regards to the 2%, I read an article about a year ago that said in defensive shootings, that 45s had something like a 90% success rate of stopping the perp, while the 9 mm was at 87% or 88%. The percentage difference between the two rounds was very low)
ok dumbass, I was referring to you mentioning the mp5. think about it. 1 quick squeeze in full auto equals about 3rds. 1 squeeze of your pistol equals 1rd. duh.
man, are you really that thick?
Now for an honest question of yours about why the 9mm is popular. Ok ready for it? Hear it comes:
Because it is MUCH cheaper to produce the pistol and the ammunition! The same answer goes for smg's. The .45 uses almost twice the metal in production of the ammunition.
Heres a quote from a good website.
I’ve never had to shoot a live assailant (and hope I never have to), but I know guys who have and gunlore is filled with their sordid stories. My buddy (we’ll call him The Captain) returned last year from his 2nd tour of duty in Iraq where he ran a Scout Platoon for the 4th Infantry Division near Najaf. Over drinks one night back home he told me that it took multiple rounds from his trusty M9 Beretta 9mm to take down an attacking assailant while the Spec Ops guy next to him, unfettered with an Army issued sidearm, blew the vitals clear out through an insurgent’s backside with one shot from his .45.
Now I’ve seen The Captain light matches at distance with a rifle bullet, but even he admits to being less than a crack shot with the pistol. I can imagine that accuracy played some part in the outcome with several of The Captain’s 9mm rounds going astray in the frenzied heat of the battle while a seasoned dead-eye Green Beret may have nailed his target front-and-center on the first try. But aside from anecdotal stories and myths, what do the facts of science suggest about cartridge effectiveness?......
The Geneva Convention requires that only ball ammunition be used during warfare which means a small and smooth copper-jacketed 9mm round traveling at a blistering 1,200 fps will likely pass completely through a target depositing a big portion of its energy into whatever happens to be behind it. The bigger .45 traveling at sub-sonic speeds may be more likely to stop inside the target where it expends more of its destructive energy.
Now with ALL of that being said; if you fail to get proper training and cannot handle the .45 and can only shoot the 9mm accurately, then go for it. Fact of the matter is if you can put 3 shots center mass in under 2 seconds at 21 feet then your 'should' be fine. Now all the practice in the world will not prepare you for the real life situation you hopefully never have to face, but I would prefer only having to hit the sob once in the chest vs. multiple times.
Oh at to your kids talking about the .22lr, its only good for killin birds, coons, and that shit head dog that keeps on crappin in my yard.
Now to shotguns. As demonstrated my "The Truth Box" only 00 buck and better is good for taking down a man. There have been a few instances where people where shot with bird shot and it did not even pass the ribcage. I remember one article about a guy who was shot with a 12ga full of #9 shot and when the cops got there he was walking around. Only 1 pellet had pass the rib cage and it was only about 1/4 of an inch.
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so ... WTF are you anyway ? LEO ? SSS Operator ?
Have you experienced the "emotional/mental power and preparation" it takes to pull the trigger?
Your post fails to take into consideration no one knows you, you dont know us, and there are more than a few on here who have been in that "dynamic situation."
What do you carry (presuming you have a CCW) ?
Why isn't is OK for someone to decide to carry THEIR handgun without a round chambered ? Because you said so ?
If you are going to spew your shit to people who clearly know more than you do, back it up or go home.
All I have to say about this topic is that if you are uncomfortable carrying a loaded gun with one in the chamber with the hammer cocked, with proper safeties in place, you should not be carrying a gun, especially concealed. I don't think that many people think and consider the emotional/mental power and preparation it takes to use a gun in a dynamic situation. Before buying a gun "just to carry it" to feel that rush to your ego, consider and ponder on the fact if you truly can take another's life when by sheer accident/coincidence you are in a moment in time when that kind of force is needed.
Guns are great, and a lot of fun, but I fear that too many people buy them and carry them just to feel "cool." Consider if your truly ready to make that decision in your life that will affect you forever and all those you love, and then I think one is ready to buy, train and prepare for that once in a life time moment that no man longs for.
And if you do decide that this responsibility part of yours to carry, buy a Glock and make it a .357 Sig or above. Not a pansy 9mm.
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Doc might very well be my favorite person in the world right now.
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ok dumbass, I was referring to you mentioning the mp5. think about it. 1 quick squeeze in full auto equals about 3rds. 1 squeeze of your pistol equals 1rd. duh.
man, are you really that thick?
anger management issues? Try calming down and having a reasonable discussion as an adult and not be so insulting.
a quote from you from the original post I was replying to.
Now to the .357 myth9mm myth. Look at your loading data, they are basically the same; that is, they both are NOT good tactical cartridges.
Again, if the 9mm is not a good tactical round, then why is it the ONLY round offered in the MP5, the most POPULAR SMG IN THE WORLD? (An MP5 that shoots anything besides a 9mm was a special order, the 5 in MP5 designates the 9mm cartridge.) The 9mm is a pistol round, therefore it is ONLY for close-in combat. If it is not a good round, then why is a gun chambered in it the most popular? Because you can shoot it 3 times? Is that the answer you are going with?
Now for an honest question of yours about why the 9mm is popular. Ok ready for it? Hear it comes:
Because it is MUCH cheaper to produce the pistol and the ammunition! The same answer goes for smg's. The .45 uses almost twice the metal in production of the ammunition.
Of course, if your weapon requires 3 rounds to reduce the assailant to a nonthreatening state, then it really isn't cheaper.
I highly doubt 45 is 3 times the price of 9mm
Heres a quote from a good website.
I’ve never had to shoot a live assailant...
wow, a quote from an anonymous website giving second hand information about a shooting. If it is on the interweb, it must be true! I don't know the experience of the person writing the story, nor the experience of the person involved in the shooting of whom he is talking about. Using this as a creditable source is laughable.
My source for saying the 9mm cartridge is a good round is quoting Dick Couch, former Naval Officer, SEAL Team 1 Platoon commander in Vietnam, who is quoting a SQT Handgun instructor of the rank Petty Officer (name withheld from book due to security reasons), a 14 year Navy veteran with 4 Platoon deployments with both SEAL Team 3 and SEAL Team 5. A SIG 226 shooting a 9mm round is the Petty Officers choice of a secondary weapon.
To me, looking at their credentials, seems that both of these guys have been there, done that.
If a 9mm handgun is good enough for the petty officer, then it sure as heck is good enough for me.
Now all the practice in the world will not prepare you for the real life situation you hopefully never have to face, but I would prefer only having to hit the sob once in the chest vs. multiple times.
I agree, you can't count on hitting someone 3 times in the chest. Heck, the FBI states they only hit the subject 20-30% of the time.
You know, my position in this whole exchange is basically saying that 9mm is an adequate round for a concealed weapon. Does the 45 do it better? Yes it does. And according to the FBI who did extensive testing, the 10mm does it better still.
So really, 9mm < 45 caliber < 10mm
However, all are good carry rounds.
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well said, but he's probably going to jump all over you for the mp5 comments again :lol:
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ok im an ass and forgot to post the link. but im tired of this crap its not going anywhere. fact of the matter is that the 9mm is no where nearly as good as the .45 and for packing purposes the .45 is the better choice. You will not be going through 16rds of 9mm. Hell you wont be going through the 14rds of .45. I can understand people who have small hands having difficulty with a large double stack .45 vs the 9mm, but there are other options. I am not going to continue arguing with complete noobs over the subject when in the long run it dosn't even matter. Some people are in love with the 9mm, and thats ok. Its sub-par when compared to the .45, but this is the US you can have what ever the hell you want.
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No matter what an agressor get's shot in the face with, it'll hurt.
that made me giggle.
I have a .38, 9mm, and a .45 that I carry with regularity, and I'm more of a round over caliber. Loaded with the right rounds for the right situation, you're deadly with anything.
Even a .177 fired from a Daisy pump action airgun? :P
I heard Reagan got hit with a bunch of .22s but didn't notice it till later.
I dunno Ed. Is that your way of volunteering to take a .177 to the face? :lol:
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I am not going to continue arguing with complete noobs over the subject when in the long run it dosn't even matter.
I hate to even continue this, and I may be a "noob" as it pertains to airsoft, but don't you dare assume that I am noob as it pertains to this. When have you ever had to defend your life or that of your buddies with a damn toothpick, let alone a gun! Don't you dare tell me what's better until you've pulled the trigger.
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Thanks...I got the response I expected to see from here.
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No matter what an agressor get's shot in the face with, it'll hurt.
that made me giggle.
I have a .38, 9mm, and a .45 that I carry with regularity, and I'm more of a round over caliber. Loaded with the right rounds for the right situation, you're deadly with anything.
Even a .177 fired from a Daisy pump action airgun? :P
I heard Reagan got hit with a bunch of .22s but didn't notice it till later.
I dunno Ed. Is that your way of volunteering to take a .177 to the face? :lol:
LOL not really, we actually had to kick a guy off the air rifle team back in high school for shooting one of his teammates with a .177
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well, i've got a bb in my face still from when I was like 9, and believe me, it deterred me from messing with my older brother for at least two whole days.
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I just have to say this. For those of you using the MP5 as your main defense for 9mm, why did they make the MP-5/10 or MP-5/40? Or the UMP primarily available in .40/.45? Because they know 9mm often isn't sufficient. The only reason they use a 9mm is for manageability on full auto.
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Allright pimple face .... do you even have a CCW ??
Do you even OWN a handgun (NOT airsoft) ???
I have asked you that twice now. Some reason you wont answer?
Its not an "argument" when you clearly do not have the intellectual weapons to engage.
Your arguments fail to contain solid premises and your conclusions are based on many additional assumptions. Your syllogisms suck in other words.
In the world of deadly force, its not about what round or weapon is better - its simply minimal competency. Can you put down an attacker effectively and without harming collateral bystanders is the only question to be answered.
A 9mm will do that job rather nicely. So will a .40, .45, .357, .44. A .32 MIGHT but is approaching the No Go area. But its probably better than nothing in a gun fight.
You seem to be the "noob" here. I would bet dollars to donuts that a great many of us on here were carrying weapons when you were shitting your papmpers.
Lane check Leg ....
ok im an ass and forgot to post the link. but im tired of this crap its not going anywhere. fact of the matter is that the 9mm is no where nearly as good as the .45 and for packing purposes the .45 is the better choice. You will not be going through 16rds of 9mm. Hell you wont be going through the 14rds of .45. I can understand people who have small hands having difficulty with a large double stack .45 vs the 9mm, but there are other options. I am not going to continue arguing with complete noobs over the subject when in the long run it dosn't even matter. Some people are in love with the 9mm, and thats ok. Its sub-par when compared to the .45, but this is the US you can have what ever the hell you want.
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Lawyered.
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Allright pimple face .... do you even have a CCW ??
Do you even OWN a handgun (NOT airsoft) ???
I have asked you that twice now. Some reason you wont answer?
Its not an "argument" when you clearly do not have the intellectual weapons to engage.
Your arguments fail to contain solid premises and your conclusions are based on many additional assumptions. Your syllogisms suck in other words.
In the world of deadly force, its not about what round or weapon is better - its simply minimal competency. Can you put down an attacker effectively and without harming collateral bystanders is the only question to be answered.
A 9mm will do that job rather nicely. So will a .40, .45, .357, .44. A .32 MIGHT but is approaching the No Go area. But its probably better than nothing in a gun fight.
You seem to be the "noob" here. I would bet dollars to donuts that a great many of us on here were carrying weapons when you were shitting your papmpers.
Lane check Leg ....
ok im an ass and forgot to post the link. but im tired of this crap its not going anywhere. fact of the matter is that the 9mm is no where nearly as good as the .45 and for packing purposes the .45 is the better choice. You will not be going through 16rds of 9mm. Hell you wont be going through the 14rds of .45. I can understand people who have small hands having difficulty with a large double stack .45 vs the 9mm, but there are other options. I am not going to continue arguing with complete noobs over the subject when in the long run it dosn't even matter. Some people are in love with the 9mm, and thats ok. Its sub-par when compared to the .45, but this is the US you can have what ever the hell you want.
Yes, Yes, and I dont have pimps.
I told you I was done, but if you want to be a cunt then here you go...
The reason the MP5 is a 9mm is due to the fact they had a surplus of 9mm ammo and as stated earlier the .45ACP uses almost twice the metal to make the ammunition as well as they would have been forced to make a stronger action. The 9mm is NOT allowed in most police districts because of the fact it is a sub-par cartridge when it comes to stopping power. Most police districts state that you MUST carry a .40 or larger. (while the 1911 is not allowed because the 'public' does not like to see a 'locked and cocked' weapon. :roll: ) The US military is also goign BACK to the .45 since they once again have found it is lacking in the ability to take your enemy down NOW.
I will say this once, do NOT test me. Just because you may have been in the military does not mean you know shit when it comes to penetration and ballistics. You have no idea who I am. If at anytime someone wants to compete, lets go. I have shot competitively for over 13 years and still have National records. You name it I can do it. (except pistol and archery. I am good, just not that good; I admit it. And I average 24/25 clays)
When was the last time you did wet pack testing? When was the last time you poured you own lead? When was the last time you handloaded? When was the last time you killed something? When was the last time you hand lapped a target barrel? When was the last time you glass and pillar bedded a rifle? When was the last time you had a custom rifle made? When was the last time you just opened up reloading manuals and read them at night for shits and giggles? When was the last time you had an aluminum stock made for you target rifle? When was the last time you shot flys with iron sights at over 100 yards? (ok on that one I would spot the flys with my spotting scope and i kneeling aim at where they were and take them out. I know I was hitting them due to the wigs left in place and the guts on the target.) When was the last time you handloaded your 22-250 so hot that the bullets denigrated 10-15' in front of the muzzle? (I shot about 10 of them and pulled the rest and reduced the load) When was the last time you where hunting with a pistol? When was the last time you where successful at anything?
Go read articles that Elmer Keith wrote. He and my old man where good friends back in the day. He was a short guy with a BIG attitude. (as most short guys do)
BTW its not simply competency. There have been SEVERAL occasions where people where shot several times in the chest before going down with a 9mm, sometimes harming or killing the person defending themselves.
AND if you are NOT going to carry it lock and cocked, when do you expect to rack the slide when the moment of truth comes? Are you going to say, "Hey wait a sec I need to load my gun?", Hell no you do NOT have time. That the reason I like the XD and the Glock is when you need to fire all you have to do is hit the dang button.
EDIT: And the reason I did not want to answer is that im done with this and your incompetency shines through your posts. I did not want to waste my time with you or this garbage.
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well Davy Cockett since you are finished now =D> :D/ we can get back to our regularly scheduled programming....
BTW ..... LOVE the new FOE feature... its like Polie doesn't even exist on the forum anymore !!!
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well Davy Cockett since you are finished now =D> :D/ we can get back to our regularly scheduled programming....
I already said that. :roll: Your the one who wanted to drag me back in. :roll:
Stop being such a Democrat. (sorry that was pretty harsh)
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the bullets denigrated 10-15' in front of the muzzle?
(http://mmachronic.com/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/2512270372_85db8e2198_o.gif)
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From encarta.msn.com:
den·i·grate [ dénni gràyt ] (past and past participle den·i·grat·ed, present participle den·i·grat·ing, 3rd person present singular den·i·grates)
transitive verb
Definition:
1. defame: to attack somebody's character or reputation
2. disparage and belittle: to disparage or criticize somebody or something, or make something seem unimportant
Wow. This guy has seen a lot. I've been into shooting since I was 8 years old, and I've never belittled a bullet once it left the barrel.
I think he meant disintegrate (which i've never seen either).
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From encarta.msn.com:
den·i·grate [ dénni gràyt ] (past and past participle den·i·grat·ed, present participle den·i·grat·ing, 3rd person present singular den·i·grates)
transitive verb
Definition:
1. defame: to attack somebody's character or reputation
2. disparage and belittle: to disparage or criticize somebody or something, or make something seem unimportant
Wow. This guy has seen a lot. I've been into shooting since I was 8 years old, and I've never belittled a bullet once it left the barrel.
I think he meant disintegrate (which i've never seen either).
yeah its called crappy firefox spell check and rushing b4 work.
EDIT: Chrono'ed at around 4400fps
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You are very amusing polie. I was angry, but now I'm just laughing at you. Keep shooting your targets, the real shooters have work to do.
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You are very amusing polie. I was angry, but now I'm just laughing at you...
This guy is a piece of work...so full of anger. He needs a friend, but he doesn't seem to be very good at making them. And yes Doc, the Foe function Rocks! Too bad I won't see his response :!:
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You are very amusing polie. I was angry, but now I'm just laughing at you. Keep shooting your targets, the real shooters have work to do.
Dont hate me because I am better than you. (when it comes to shooting)
You are very amusing polie. I was angry, but now I'm just laughing at you...
This guy is a piece of work...so full of anger. He needs a friend, but he doesn't seem to be very good at making them. And yes Doc, the Foe function Rocks! Too bad I won't see his response :!:
Why should I when I make a simple post and everyone jumps on my balls. This place is worst that Pirate4x4. (and yes I did put you on foe first)
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Come out to the AZCDL fourth of july match and we will see how well you shoot.
I suggest all people do as well. AZCDL is a great organization and this is a fun match, with great raffle prizes (from mee too!)
http://www.azcdl.org/html/rifle_match.html (http://www.azcdl.org/html/rifle_match.html)
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Come out to the AZCDL fourth of july match and we will see how well you shoot.
I suggest all people do as well. AZCDL is a great organization and this is a fun match, with great raffle prizes (from mee too!)
http://www.azcdl.org/html/rifle_match.html (http://www.azcdl.org/html/rifle_match.html)
HA fat chance my boss will let me off, but I will start the nagging process anyways.
Hmm If I can do I will will bring my heavy varmint rifle. I would love to do position, but I had a fire in October and lost everything, including my Kurt Thune leathers and my custom shooting boots; with size 16EEE they have to be custom made and are just to damn expensive right now with the Euro. I hear that newer company in Korea is making some really nice leather, (no not bondage), at about half the price, but I doubt anyone here would know about them. (no offense, but things being a airsoft forum I doubt many people even know what I am talking about)
I guess its time to start coming up with some summer loads. Last year I found that my 52HPBT with 36.5gr with Varget was the best combo. I think I will start with that load first. I also need to get off my arse and mount the Unertl on it as well :roll: But I really would like a Shillien barrel chambered in a 22-250 Ack Imprv. but with everything else I dont see that coming this year.
Wait how did we go from a Walter P99 to talking about precision shooting? Oh well off I go...
EDIT: Who do we talk to about giving stuff to the raffel? I got some .22's that could use a good home; unless theres a good hunters ed program that needs them.
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I personally don't give a flying fuck how you shoot in a calm environment, without bullets snapping around you. Sure, you're a great shot when you aren't going to die. Panic, confusion, fuckloads of noise have a tendency to make nomal processes a bit more difficult. My opinion on the type of rounds you use: something you can shoot without a problem. Got a 1911? Great. What happens when you can't shoot for shit when hitting something matters? Caliber means nothing. Though, I would rather have a lower recoil weapon that I can either fire in rapid succession without losing control of my weapon when SHTF. That is just my personal opinion.
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I personally don't give a flying **** how you shoot in a calm environment, without bullets snapping around you. Sure, you're a great shot when you aren't going to die. Panic, confusion, fuckloads of noise have a tendency to make nomal processes a bit more difficult. My opinion on the type of rounds you use: something you can shoot without a problem. Got a 1911? Great. What happens when you can't shoot for s*** when hitting something matters? Caliber means nothing. Though, I would rather have a lower recoil weapon that I can either fire in rapid succession without losing control of my weapon when SHTF. That is just my personal opinion.
Dont know what YOUR problem is, but you can fire a .45 just as fast and accurately. Its all about how you hold it. And yes I have been in SHTF situations.
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Boss forcing you to work on the 4th of July?
It is an action rifle match with maximum engagement out to 300yds, it will be a good test of short and mid range skills. No way I would bring a varmit gat to this match it is too fast paced, i may run with my garand again for fun, but may use my AR.
Info here:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=15192 (http://www.airsoftarizona.com/forumbb/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=15192)
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Fantastic for you. That post wasn't directed AT you, so don't get all upidy sounding and shit. I don't have the problem, but some people might. You're telling me you can compensate for muzzle rise of a .45, versus a 9mm, and fire at the same rate of fire. I don't believe you. Let me see you fire hammers out of your .45 just as fast and accurately as my 9mm at 10 meters, and i'll believe you.
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WHEN A BULLET OF ANY CAL HITS YOU IT HURTS , A CRIMINAL WILL NOT CONTINUE TO HARASS YOU AFTER BEING SHOT , EVEN WITH A BB GUN . EVEN A 22LR PISTOL HAS THE POWER OF INTIMIDATION CRIMINALS RUN FROM GUNS AND A 22 TO THE BACK OF THE LEG WILL DROP A FOOL QUICK , HE MIGHT GET UP AN LIMP HOME BUT HE LIKELY HAS LEARNED TO AVOID YOU AT ALL COSTS THE NEXT TIME HE'S WORKING... DEFENDING YOUR SELF IN A DANGEROUS SITUATION IS ABOUT KEEPING YOUR HEAD TOGETHER NOT THE SIZE OF YOUR PISTOL.
SOME OF YOU GUYS SOUND LIKE LITTLE B*TCHES COMPARING YOUR C*CKS BUT NOT WHIPING THEM OUT, DONT COMPARE SH*T YOU CANT SEE. ONLY YOU KNOW WHAT WORK FOR YOU , MAYBE BILLY ,BOBBY, TIMMY AND TOMMY LIKE THERE SH*T BUT IT DONT WORK FOR YOU , STICK WITH WHAT YOU KNOW WORKS FOR YOU.
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WHEN A BULLET OF ANY CAL HITS YOU IT HURTS , A CRIMINAL WILL NOT CONTINUE TO HARASS YOU AFTER BEING SHOT , EVEN WITH A BB GUN . EVEN A 22LR PISTOL HAS THE POWER OF INTIMIDATION CRIMINALS RUN FROM GUNS AND A 22 TO THE BACK OF THE LEG WILL DROP A FOOL QUICK , HE MIGHT GET UP AN LIMP HOME BUT HE LIKELY HAS LEARNED TO AVOID YOU AT ALL COSTS THE NEXT TIME HE'S WORKING... DEFENDING YOUR SELF IN A DANGEROUS SITUATION IS ABOUT KEEPING YOUR HEAD TOGETHER NOT THE SIZE OF YOUR PISTOL.
SOME OF YOU GUYS SOUND LIKE LITTLE B*TCHES COMPARING YOUR C*CKS BUT NOT WHIPING THEM OUT, DONT COMPARE SH*T YOU CANT SEE. ONLY YOU KNOW WHAT WORK FOR YOU , MAYBE BILLY ,BOBBY, TIMMY AND TOMMY LIKE THERE SH*T BUT IT DONT WORK FOR YOU , STICK WITH WHAT YOU KNOW WORKS FOR YOU.
:roll: Boss forcing you to work on the 4th of July?
It is an action rifle match with maximum engagement out to 300yds, it will be a good test of short and mid range skills. No way I would bring a varmit gat to this match it is too fast paced, i may run with my garand again for fun, but may use my AR.
Info here:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=15192 (http://www.airsoftarizona.com/forumbb/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=15192)
Still workin on getting an AR-10. I could use my AK, but as well all know they are not know for their accuracy. Oh and yes I will prob. be working. I'm sick like that where I love to work.
Fantastic for you. That post wasn't directed AT you, so don't get all upidy sounding and s***. I don't have the problem, but some people might. You're telling me you can compensate for muzzle rise of a .45, versus a 9mm, and fire at the same rate of fire. I don't believe you. Let me see you fire hammers out of your .45 just as fast and accurately as my 9mm at 10 meters, and i'll believe you.
Dont care if you believe me. All you need for a proper grip with your right hand, (that is if your right handed), is pressure with your ring and middle finger and the palm area under the thumb. You should be able to poke a pencil between the pistol and your hand on the right side. This will help with muzzle rise. The when going to a 2 handed hold wrap you let palm around the grip making an almost clam shell appearance with it making contact with the back of your right hand. Then lock you wrist forward and lay your index finger and thumb along the slide and rest your right thumb on top of that. Then warp you 3 other fingers around your right figer o the grip and apply a firm but steady pressure. Once you get the hang of it you can really control the muzzle and fire it just fine.
Remember, .45's like to held firmly. If you have to shoot someone even twice with a 9mm to bring them down, whats the point when 1 from a .45 will do it? And when it comes to, "Well just-in-case I have more ammo in my 9mm." argument; there are company's producing hi-cap .45's now. I carry one almost every time I leave the house, except when I go to work. We are not allowed to pack at work. :roll:
I dont really understand why people are so in love with the 9mm when there are much better options out there. If you have weak grip, the .40 is a good round and is still better.
On a side note, when discharging from the military are you given the option to keep your weapons? (mostly wondering about the Class III stuff)
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Polie is a fuckingposer anyway....
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Yell yell, bitch gripe, look something up on the internet and post it here, gripe gripe, double check other web page so I get in all of the info I want to pass off as mine, yell gripe.
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Polie is a fuckingposer anyway....
like I said, dont hate me because I am better than you.
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Polie is a fuckingposer anyway....
like I said, dont hate me because I am better than you.
Talk is cheap, come out to the 4th match and prove it.
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Are you actually still reading what this guy has to say Dave?
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I just have to say this. For those of you using the MP5 as your main defense for 9mm, why did they make the MP-5/10 or MP-5/40? Or the UMP primarily available in .40/.45? Because they know 9mm often isn't sufficient. The only reason they use a 9mm is for manageability on full auto.
I was the only one that I am aware of that specifically mentioned the MP5, and it was to contradict the statement that 9mm isn't a good tactical round. Again, the MP5 is the most popular SMG in the world, bar none. If it wasn't a good tactical round in a good weapon, then it would never have become the most popular. Apparently a lot of folks in a lot of countries thought it was just fine and bought a lot of them. Come on, when you think H&K, isn't the first thing that comes to mind the MP5?
The MP5 was first introduced in 1966. It wasn't until 1992 that the 10mm and 40S&W was introduced in the weapon, and both were discontinued in 2000 I believe. 27 years it was only available as a 9mm and has been back to that way for the last 8 years. The 10mm version was created specifically for the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation due to the 1986 shooting which had the FBI do a bunch of ballistic tests and go with the 10mm. I am sure the FBI ordered a decent amount to fund the research needed for H&K to make the 10mm version. Of course, H&K never made a 45 version....why is that?
I wasn't arguing which is better, my argument was with the statement that the 9mm is not a tactical round.
Is the 9mm as good as a 45? No, of course not, but the 45 isn't the best round either. Each round has pluses and minuses that anyone looking for a carry gun has to weight and factor into what they want. What qualifies a good carry gun for one person might be a horrible choice for someone else. Size, weight, recoil, gun design, complexity of use, muzzle flash, magazine size, conceal-ability are all weighted differently for different people. There is no one "right" answer, just pros and cons.
Here is to hoping the pros beat the cons. 8)
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Well said....
personally I did my "prove it" a great many years ago. I'm a little busy doing grown up things right now like preparing for the bar exam, jury trials, and trying to fit some high level milsim in between it all so I can't come out and do the my cock is bigger than your cock routine with a 25 year old fuckstick poser.
Seems to me though that its the ones who brag about how they did this and that and they have such great skills that end up like Nick Maas... :---) FOS.
Polie, I don't hate you. You don't matter enough for me to hate you. I have forgotten more cumstains like you than I could even keep track of. You simply do not exist in the real world were the rest of us are living.
But I understand why you have to keep drawing the attention to you. Its OK.. the short bus is waiting for you now though so run along buh bye now...
Polie is a fuckingposer anyway....
like I said, dont hate me because I am better than you.
Talk is cheap, come out to the 4th match and prove it.
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But I understand why you have to keep drawing the attention to you. Its OK.. the short bus is waiting for you now though so run along buh bye now...
ROFLMAO......I make it a point to search out Docs posts to read. =D> =D> =D>
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That's what these guys don't get, they can't win arguing with doc because he's smarter than they are and has had more time to perfect his technique :lol:
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It sounds like everyone had "grown up things to do" like taking the bar exam... opinions are fine and everyone is entitled to them. I think this thread has turned into a small man compensation bitch off. I'm out for good. See you out there when the real S@*% hits the fan, cause I'm the one you'll be calling.
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Hey I was wondering if anybody has had any experience with the Walther P99?
I have been looking at handguns for a little while, trying to decide what I want to get myself for a concealed carry firearm.
I would like to start carrying soon so that I am used to it in a few years when I qualify as an armed crewmember (airline pilot).
For years I wanted a 1911, but after much thought I decided that I wanted a double action for carry purposes. At this point the idea of having one in the pipe and the hammer back seems like a dangerous one.
So anyway, to make a long story short I decided that I liked the feel of the P99. I also was led to believe by a few LEOs back home that it is best to carry something in .40SW or .45ACP.
So my questions to all of you...
1: Experience with the P99 (especially in the .40)
2: Any other handguns you would recommend for a first concealed carry?
Thanks for all of your help.
I know you wanted personal experience, but this is the best i have.
My Dad carries the Walther P99 .40cal as his CCW. he hasn't had any problems with it and has been carrying it for awhile now. As of late he has been carrying a glock, but plans on going back to the Walther.
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dude dont waste ur time with a walther or a 40 get a sig!
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Hey I was wondering if anybody has had any experience with the Walther P99?
I have been looking at handguns for a little while, trying to decide what I want to get myself for a concealed carry firearm.
I would like to start carrying soon so that I am used to it in a few years when I qualify as an armed crewmember (airline pilot).
For years I wanted a 1911, but after much thought I decided that I wanted a double action for carry purposes. At this point the idea of having one in the pipe and the hammer back seems like a dangerous one.
So anyway, to make a long story short I decided that I liked the feel of the P99. I also was led to believe by a few LEOs back home that it is best to carry something in .40SW or .45ACP.
So my questions to all of you...
1: Experience with the P99 (especially in the .40)
2: Any other handguns you would recommend for a first concealed carry?
Thanks for all of your help.
FYI- I didnt read all 7 pages.
Dad has a P99 (9mm) that i have "inherited", i love the way it feels... grip wise,I cant really compare it to any other 9mm off the top of my head, and i have no clue how the .40 shoots. I am not a fan of the P99 sights, but other than that i like the gun a lot.
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dude dont waste ur time with a walther or a 40 get a sig!
Wouldn't carry a sig either for a 1st line real world weapon.
Nothing will ever be as reliable as a Glock. Hands down..
The kid in the beginning of the post said he went to a range and fired a 17 and didn't like it. I wouldn't trust the impression of a range owned weapon. They are abused and horribly kept most of the time. Point in fact I tried out a Kimber compact Pro II at SGC once.. half the mag jammed and it had just 'been cleaned'. The other thing is keeping that weapon clean and ready to go. Why would you trust your life, or someone elses.. to a weapon that is dirty or has known issues..
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Glocks are amazing, other then the feel, which is fantastic, there was a guy that put one of these through a torture test and its was incredible what it could survive. I will look for the link and post it if I find it.
**Edit. Here you go! http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
I think this has been on here before, but I just found it on google. Search for a 250 round test If you want more! It is fantastic, and the guy lives in AZ.
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there are only 2 problems with that,
1) This is an OLD thread
and
2) Its still a Glock
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dude dont waste ur time with a walther or a 40 get a sig!
Wouldn't carry a sig either for a 1st line real world weapon.
Nothing will ever be as reliable as a Glock. Hands down..
The kid in the beginning of the post said he went to a range and fired a 17 and didn't like it. I wouldn't trust the impression of a range owned weapon. They are abused and horribly kept most of the time. Point in fact I tried out a Kimber compact Pro II at SGC once.. half the mag jammed and it had just 'been cleaned'. The other thing is keeping that weapon clean and ready to go. Why would you trust your life, or someone elses.. to a weapon that is dirty or has known issues..
I shoot both a Glock 17 and a Sig P229R DAK. the Glock has been super reliable but as most guns has the break-in feed issues until the feed ramp was polished. The handle on the also glock feels to be at a different angle then other guns and is pretty squared off so it might not be for everyone. The Sig came from the factory shooting straight with out any breaking-in issues, to this day it has not had any failures, not one. the grip is way more ergonomic especially since putting the houge grip on was easy, the only ergomonic option if the factory grip doesnt fit for the glock is a slip-on that aint that great.
I wouldnt discount the Sig to not be used as a real world front line weapon, do you own one? Just wonderin how you came to this decision. They are very high quality firearms and trusted by many government agencies for thier reliablity. i trust it will work every time, because it literally has. Also the slide has a better feel with the action and it's kinda nice to have an external hammer to not just feel the pull but to see it in your peripheral where that hammer drop point is.
I love the Glock because it's simple and when it needs to work, it works.. it's just so damn ugly. The Sig has a sexiness factor with it that the glock will never have and also works when you need it no matter what. Both are great guns but both are not for everybody.
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Guy's here's my Walther P99 I'm new in this gun, what do you think of this?
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z308/NeFoodA/images-8.jpg)
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Guy's here's my Walther P99 I'm new in this gun, what do you think of this?
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z308/NeFoodA/images-8.jpg)
Check your dates before posting.
This thread is close to a year old.
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This thread is close to a year old.
Over a year old.