Airsoft Arizona
General Airsoft Arizona => General Airsoft Discussion => Topic started by: Warlord on January 30, 2015, 10:50:46 PM
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Hey guys and possibly girls...? Anybody notice that this sight is dying? I know I stopped for a bit when younger kids started to overwhelm, and school happened, but why now? Airsoft is bigger than ever especially as I have seen it grow here in AZ, so are there any ideas as to where all the old timers and all the people I've come to know on here have stopped using this site?
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Been wondering the same thing..
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I disappeared for 5 years and was estatic to get back with the the changes to equipment tech out now and affordable prices. (used to cost a fortune in 08) and I've noticed theres not much activity site wise. I blame facebook and call of duty. I'm still trying to plan to gear up this week. But its so dead on the listings I might have to just buy online.
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Most of the old timers have moved on to other things. For me it's cars and computers. A lot of the old timers had been getting less and less active for some time, but then I think Ron's passing was kinda the final straw so to speak. I haven't seen a most of the other old timers since Ron's funeral. I know a few of them still get out to the occasional game but, for a lot of us, Ron/Gearbox was kinda the glue holding it together. You'd drop by the shop and inevitably one of the other old timers would drop in and you'd end up being there for hours just chatting. At some point the subject of how long it had been since you'd been to a game would come up and you'd be like "yeah, I need to get out again". Now it's kinda out of sight, out of mind.
While airsoft in and of itself may be bigger than ever, the clientele has change drastically since the "old" days. Most of the old timers aren't big fans of what airsoft has largely become. The founders of this site are old timers, therefore the site largely reflects our pulse. The newer clientele prefer other means of communication (namely Facebook).
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That's what I loved about it all. You'd meet up at a shop or surplus store and it was a social thing. The ops were a blast but also a learning experience and full of trust, teamwork and sportsmanship. It was almost a deployment in itself when a big game would come up. I've noticed alot of the very young, around 17 and 21 take it as a way to just feel cool and don't have the same respect. Air soft has gotten stigmatized abit through reckless handling and brandishing in public. Us older mature types put em away after an event, mabey take it out at home to look at, modify and customize to share results with the community, and back in the closet it goes. Just like a real firearm. Kids look at it as a toy and lax sport like paintball. But I could be ignorant and wont say that's all the young group does. I'm barely 26 and I'm still young. But still, the passing of a matriarch or high profile organizer can sting things down alot.
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I see what both of you are saying, I am glad I got to see a real tech and airsoft store (Gearbox) while it lasted. I have set up a place to do the same thing as Gearbox, did out at Wild West Paintball and Airsoft Park by bringing good tech work, consignments, sales, rentals, and most importantly good customer service. Hopefully LynchTec Airsoft can help rebuild the respect airsoft needs.
What do the old timers think on the technological acheivements that airsoft is coming to for instance the ERG's, SMP's, and Polarstars?
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I see what both of you are saying, I am glad I got to see a real tech and airsoft store (Gearbox) while it lasted. I have set up a place to do the same thing as Gearbox, did out at Wild West Paintball and Airsoft Park by bringing good tech work, consignments, sales, rentals, and most importantly good customer service. Hopefully LynchTec Airsoft can help rebuild the respect airsoft needs.
What do the old timers think on the technological acheivements that airsoft is coming to for instance the ERG's, SMP's, and Polarstars?
Exactly what you just did, is a prime example of why this sport went the way it did, and why I will rarely pick up the stuff again to play as I once had at herd-site games.
"Oldtimer" games are still very much alive and kicking
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Before I say what is on my mind, someone define "old timers."
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Before I say what is on my mind, someone define "old timers."
I don't know that there's a set definition for old timers, but people like myself, Airsofter1, Mad Sarge, etc, have been playing at large organized games for over a decade. I specifically say "organized" because some people played backyard airsoft for 10 years and count that. I have nothing against that, but that's not what we are talking about here.
Forum join dates are somewhat an indicator of that.
Edit: For example, who remembers Dusty at JT Tempe?
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If you remember jackrabbit trail fondly... Or Tonopah... or bone stock TM guns and ogling over the fact that someone spent $1000+ to get to 400 fps and a metal body. Yup, airsoft used to be a real money commitment at one point.
*cough* "Date Registered: November 02, 2001, 11:22:21 AM" *cough*
That said, that actually isn't accurate, is that when the forums changed over? My old posts that got transferred over are all dated like 1969 or something. Oh well. I didnt have much useful to say back then. Guess not much has changed.
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Edit: For example, who remembers Dusty at JT Tempe?
I DO! As well as warlock from the Tucson JT when it existed haha. That was like, 2007 or 2008 for me.
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Since I started back on this topic in the other thread, figured I might as well post it here too. The combination of the itch to play again and boredom at work right now will make this a long winded post.
It's hard to describe just how much airsoft has changed in the 12 years or so I've been playing. It not any one thing, everything about airsofting has changed.
I bought my first airsoft guns at JungleToy Tempe and Softair Depot. Back in those days, if you wanted an AEG your choice was basically Tokyo Marui or Classic Army. My first AEG's were a Marui G3 SAS and a Marui Uzi. A few of us "brave" people tried out this new company called ICS with mixed results. Cyma, JG, Well, Dboys; those weren't even a thing yet. Back in these days, getting started in airsoft meant you were going to be spending more than $600. You were hard pressed to get an AEG for under $400. Under $300 wasn't happening. If memory serves, I want to say my above mentioned G3 SAS was $330. 1 high cap mag included. Plastic body, no battery. If you wanted extra mags you typically had to choose between TM/CA highcaps or TM/CA lowcaps (or standards as they were often called in the day). Midcaps didn't come until later. You were usually spending $25-$30 a mag. If you wanted a metal body, you were going to be coughing up $150 or more for it. I want to say I picked up a HurricanE HK body for one of my M4's for the low, low price of $220 plus overseas shipping?
Your choice of venues to play at was: Wait for a game at SASCO, wait for a game at Four Peaks, play with friends out in the middle of no where (Bushnell Tanks anyone?), or play with the Marauders. Indoor fields weren't a thing. Driving over an hour to get to the game was expected.
Softair Depot was completely overpriced but they had a far better selection of "nice" stuff. Softair Depot closed down eventually. When JungleToy Tempe closed down, Ron (who was the JT District Manager at the time) turned it into Gearbox Airsoft. Prior to JT, Ron ran a booth out at the Phoenix Swapmeet selling airsoft stuff out there. Many people here don't realize how much of Arizona's airsoft history you saw when you stopped into Gearbox.
Ron as mentioned was JT's District Manager. Jeremiah and Jared whom most of you probably only know as Gearbox's techs were former JungleToy employee's. Occasionally you'd see Paul Wog behind the counter, another remnant of the old days. A few times you'd even see me behind the counter. Without those people (other than me), it's quite likely we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
All of this meant two things. First off you were usually an adult. While some kids were still able to convince their parents to pay the much higher equipment prices, they typically wouldn't spend an hour ferrying their kid out to the game. If they could, those kids usually worked their butt off trying to fit in. Anyone remember Pick? He couldn't wait until he was old enough to go to games without a sponsor. That's not an attack on the younger crowd, simply a fact of life. Secondly this was a substantial investment in time as well. This translated to the majority of players being true enthusiasts about the game and largely being people of the same general demographics. That almost made it a brotherhood for some people. I have friends I still hang out with that I met through airsofting even though we stopped airsofting a long time ago.
Then things started to change. We started seeing new companies offering similar and even sometime superior products at a lower price. At first it was great. MAG midcaps were practically a gift from god. That also caused new players to start flowing in since it was much more accessible now. An indoor field opened up over in Tempe. It was a tiny, poorly managed field. But it was something new and something close. This was the first time you started seeing people have to downgrade their springs in guns. All of that sounds great.
But that also started the shift in the types of players you saw. Up until this point, airsoft was almost entirely milsim. If you weren't wearing full camo, you weren't playing. You often brought two sets in case teams needed to be balanced. There weren't any people wearing blue camo, or tshirts and jeans. I was usually one of the few fat guys on the field which meant a lot of work for me because there was a lot of running involved if I actually wanted to get to shoot anything. Impression loadouts back then mean replicating loadouts from Vietnam or Desert Storm. Not replicating a loadout from Call of Duty. The people who didn't have a military background knew enough to at least follow the directions of the people who did. Lone wolf/rambo stuff was pretty rare.
Now, with the new affordability of airsoft, things started to change. The player base started getting younger, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself but it also started getting less mature and less dedicated. It was no longer an enthusiast hobby, it was a mainstream recreational activity. Thanks to companies like Echo1 and Cybergun, the "entry" price into the world of airsofting was now about $200. If you were happy to just run around with a pistol and no gear, you could do it for half that. In principal, that sounds great. After all, who doesn't like having more money? I know I certainly do.
But that meant airsofting was no longer restricted to the dedicated enthusiasts. Now it was just something you did for fun besides video games (and I say this as a gamer). You could run down to Wal-Mart, buy a gun for $40, rent a mask at a field and call it good. If the gun broke, oh well, it was $40. Just by another one. Regardless of age, that attracted a different type of player. Why bother tuning your gun, it works "fine" the way it is. The age was a factor as well. Many adults aren't keen on hanging out with a bunch of kids, regardless of how that kid handles himself on the field.
That's where the rift started.
That's when teams started becoming a thing. Sure, trying to group of with your friends was always a thing. I'd always look at the roster and pick whichever side had more people on it that I knew. But we weren't a team, we weren't out there for bragging rights, we were just grouping up with friends. You obviously wanted your side to win, but beyond that you really didn't care.
The problem with forming teams is teams get competitive. While that's not a bad thing in and of itself, many of the teams were lacking in the maturity department. That combined with an often oversized ego, started bringing too much drama and general bullshit onto the field. One particular team was involved in more than one fight breaking out at a game. You'd start looking at the sign up roster for a game and go "oh, those guys. I don't want anything to do with them". Some of the teams started becoming more worried about showing up the other teams than playing the game. The after action reports would read more like a soap opera than a game. "Well the scenario was fun, but nobody on Team X calls their hits". "Yeah well we only started not calling our hits because Team Y wasn't calling theirs". Etc. Etc. It got fucking stupid.
So people started going to games purely based on who was organizing the game which meant overall attendance dropped despite the larger player base. A byproduct of this was events were now being organized by far less experienced players. The overall quality of the game dropped.
This pretty much continued until it reached the point we are at today. You have a handful of older players that still put on and attend outdoor games. That's mostly who you see here. Then you have the crowd that mostly just hits up the indoor fields. Those are pretty much a freestyle show up and roll with whatever goes deal so once people got tired of arguing about cheating/stealing/etc, there wasn't much to talk about at the indoor places.
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100%
And watched it go.
I agree with you so much its not even funny haha. Jeremiah/Ron sold me my first gun/vest!
My honest opinion is that it will come back around. Once the current group gets a taste for longer missions, more in-depth scenarios, we could very well see a Mil-Sim revolution haha.
I learned through trial and experience, the shooting is the climax, it is the buildup that makes it worth it.
Outdoor run-and-gun fields offer instant satisfaction, but it doesn't last, and it is not satisfying, there is no challenge, there will be people to shoot, as they are compressed into an area that makes it impossible not to.
Spending a day or two beforehand, pulling up a map, and planning, getting correct kit together, coordinating, then working together with a compass/gps/moving skill, to pull off a mile creep up on a position, possibly only to observe the enemy, heightens the tension considerably.
Milsim is airsoft with foreplay hahah so much better
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Wow, thank you guys I enjoyed the history. I guess where there is experience there is also prophetic words. I think the milsim revolution is closer at hand than even I imagined.
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I definitely remember jungletoy. Got my first ICS m4 from there. That didn't seem like too long ago.. It was also nice seeing all the guys at gearbox, pretty relaxed atmosphere. Seemed like I would go there every week, sometimes I don't think I had any plans to buy anything. Never felt like I necessarily fit in because of the age difference, though I did feel welcome. I'm really not sure if we will ever get a small company like that again around here. I agree that the sport has become a recreational activity and I suppose it has its pros and cons. Personally I feel the "new" has had a more positive effect in general, the big gripes probably being the lack of professionalism, respect, and devotion to the sport. Might as well embrace all the good that the new has brought because we can't stop it. As for the bad... Well, sometimes we can't have the best of both worlds. Just my two cents.
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wow.
for weeks i have been seeing this topic come up but untill now have yet to check it out.
i have been involved in pretty much every aspect of airsoft with the exception of running my own store, and i am not far from doing that.
i, like several of the old-timer crowd, got my first 10-15 guns from ron.
this site has gotten a lil low on attendance and articles, i used to be on here every day, but i was always into the tuning and performance side of things. aa just didnt have the technical aspects that i was looking for and i found a couple of other sites that fed my craving for knowlage of the technical side of airsoft. and aa kinda went to the way side for me, i would check in a couple times a week but i stopped posting as much as i once did (not that i ever posted alot). i still make it to games as much as i can, and i realy wish i could make it more of the milsim games. but i just dont make the money needed to feed my craving for high end guns and big milsim ops. another problem is time, i see what happened to ron happening to me. instead of making the monthly ops that teams host, im at command post trying to keep up with the amount of guns that come in for repairs/upgrades. instead of getting some of my project guns put together i have multiple customers guns at my house that require my attention. im lucky to keep 1 gun up and running at a time. and i have thousands invested in well over 40 guns. and of course i cant bring myself to sell them cause most of them came from ron.
as the teams i am part of dont realy play much, (airsoft addicts/saguaros) if at all, and i dont seem to be invited to some of the old timer private games that i hear about after they happen i find myself at almost the same pace that i started when i first started playing airsoft. im welcome to run with a few people but am mostly a lonewolf that everybody knows. dont ask me wehere i was going with this last paragraph, i lost my train of thought halfway through.
i have watched airsoft in az grow and change over the past 15+years i have been playing. things are a lil cheaper and they have gotten better while mostly staying the same.
im kinda lost in my own head right now thinking of old times and cant realy think straight so im gonna go for now.
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Personally I feel the "new" has had a more positive effect in general, the big gripes probably being the lack of professionalism, respect, and devotion to the sport. Might as well embrace all the good that the new has brought because we can't stop it. As for the bad... Well, sometimes we can't have the best of both worlds. Just my two cents.
Emphesis above mine.
Like I said, there's no question there's been some positive changes. However the above bolded part is where one of the big disconnects has always been.
Back in the old days, airsoft was far heavier on the former and current military. For some of them, airsofting was a reminder of days past (good and bad). The uniform and military meant a lot to them and when people disrespected the uniform you were disrespecting them. Way, way, way, back in the day when I first started playing I made the mistake of wearing an ranger beanie I got on the internet because I thought it looked cool. I made that mistake once. I had been there for maybe 5 minutes, we hadn't even started playing. Somebody came up to me and explained how they felt about me wearing the beanie. I hadn't given any thought to what the Ranger name really meant. I apologized, took it off, and it hasn't been worn since. After the game I gave it more thought and ended up adopting largely the same mindset. I know most of the "old school" players that haven't served, still feel the same way.
You can find threads on here where that sort of discussion came up. Somebody asks about wearing tabs or stripes and immediately got told "if you haven't earned it, don't wear it". Unfortunately some people choose to wear it anyways. That's one example of the lack of respect that really rubs the older players the wrong way. Unfortunately for them, it's a much bigger deal than for the new players.
There's other smaller things that again just rub the older players the wrong way, especially at the indoor fields and certain outdoor venues. Back in the "old days" you never had refs on the field. They simply weren't needed. You rarely had to remind someone to empty their gun while in the staging area or to watch where they were pointing it. You weren't worried about someone stealing your stuff that you left in the staging area. You rarely questioned if someone's gun was shooting under field limits. You never had some random person you don't know coming up to you on the field during the game and asking if you had a gun/flashlight/etc they could borrow. Repeatedly.
Obviously those don't all apply to every game. But usually at least a couple of them do. I'm younger than a lot of the "old crowd" at 30 but I feel far older at airsoft games, especially at the indoor fields. Not just because I'm fat and out of breath half the time. Some of the things you see happen only happen because of the age demographic at the particular event. You can find more than one thread on here about things going missing at a couple of particular venues. That was nearly unheard of back in the old days.
All of that are signs of a lack of professionalism and a lack of respect. While any one of those at face value don't seem that bad, when you add them all up and throw them in the face of someone who's not used to having to deal with it.... It's a pretty big buzz kill.
I think we will see some changes back towards the way things were. But I don't see airsoft ever returning completely back to the way things were. There's simply been too much lost that can't be recreated.
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i am making it my 2015 goal to reply to at least 1 post a Day on AA.
-TakeBackAA2015
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I seem to see a lot of the "old timers" at the monthly MILSIM games still. Still fixtures on that "side" of the Arizona scene. What I mean by side is there is definitely a split set of players these days. The guys that are at the outdoor games and the indoor, organized fields games. I for one don't frequent indoor or the organized fields. I just don't care for that type of play. But that split definitely exists.
As for the popularity of airsoft, yes it has exploded in the last few years mainly due to whats been said earlier; cheaper gear, guns and places to play. With that you also rarely heard of incidents in the news involving airsoft guns and police incidents, at least not like today. That's an indication on how us "old timers" treated the hobby vs. todays world. Im all for cheaper stuff and new players but it's hard to regulate, to say, those old practices that used to go hand and hand with airsoft. With that said we still see to many violations of those practices, even on here and to make it worse when the experienced guys speak up it's countered by young, cocky attitudes. At least that was the trend for a while. That's quieted down some. The good with the bad I guess.
However my stance is to help the hobby grow in a positive manner. I personally reach out to new introductions who have the mindset of us older players. I remember not knowing anyone and being hesitant on going to the outdoor games. I try to break down that hesitation to get into a new sport with new people.
I embrace the fact that it has gained so much popularity. The amount of replicas out there now is incredible. The new HPA systems are giving us performance that we have dreamed of, at the fraction of what it used to cost. Also the growth of National events is exponential. Heck, this year alone their are 3 National Ops within a few hours of driving. One even in Arizona. I don't remember that ever happening. As for the traffic here on AA, it has slowed down a bit but that's probably due to other outlets of social media. I see games announced on Facebook before they're listed here. It's just the nature of social communications. This used to be the place to get information and announcements, there is just so many other channels out there now.
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Christian and Ron passing really bummed the guys that had been around since I was a kid on here. A lot of the folks I came up with either went into the military, got real jobs, had families, and airsofting went to the back burner. All the young crowd that was serious when I was 18/19, myself included, ended up using what spare time they had for real guns and training with them.
I'll be honest, I come on here every now and then just to read the drama. It seems everyone is more concerned about recruiting for their 2 man team than they are about learning and playing. The whole thing has become commercialized which is good and bad. I won't get on that topic though.
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I missed seeing your avatar. LOL.
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However my stance is to help the hobby grow in a positive manner. I personally reach out to new introductions who have the mindset of us older players. I remember not knowing anyone and being hesitant on going to the outdoor games. I try to break down that hesitation to get into a new sport with new people.
I agree with you Toast. I am new to this milsim concept and have also been hesitant to attend. I am 38 and used to play paintball long ago when all you had were pump action guns. I saw the changes technology brought and the number of people playing increase. I agree that the dynamic in airsoft has evolved over the years and you see a lot of players who just don’t share the ideals or passion many people here have. Although watching these changes I also noticed how the attitudes of some of the experienced players changed from helping the new crowd to brushing them off. There were not a lot of them but it made an impact. I am an avid outdoorsman and hunter, and have learned that the younger generation needs guidance in what is proper and right so I follow that ethos. How are they going to know what to do if the experienced ones don’t share their experience and failures? I don’t think it is any different with this sport or any other for that matter.
I had no idea this forum even existed until I was looking for information about local places to play airsoft. I was hesitant to join the forum, and am actually a bit hesitant for my 11 year old son and I to play at one of the milsim events. Why, because my son and I have no idea on what to expect, we are new and inexperienced. We figure we need to grab the bull by the horns and just get to it. We are that new crowd that wants to learn the craft from the old school. Enough of my ramble.
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While airsoft in and of itself may be bigger than ever, the clientele has change drastically since the "old" days. Most of the old timers aren't big fans of what airsoft has largely become. The founders of this site are old timers, therefore the site largely reflects our pulse. The newer clientele prefer other means of communication (namely Facebook).
Here in Tucson, were are doing everything to network, including any media we can.
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Social media like facebook takes forum users away since its so much easier to log into and use these days. It seems that if you do not have a facebook group page, your behind the times.
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E_macairsoft, come out to the games. Everyone welcomes new players, especially the ones that take the drives to the outdoor monthly MILSIM games rather than complain about the lack of closer fields. An hour-hour 1/2 is nothing for some great playing.
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We're planning on the march sasco game. Also working on a few more friends tagging along so hopefully word of mouth will bring some to this site and the event. The drive I'm sure is worth the time, and we are pretty stoked to join in.
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We're planning on the march sasco game. Also working on a few more friends tagging along so hopefully word of mouth will bring some to this site and the event. The drive I'm sure is worth the time, and we are pretty stoked to join in.
We are happy to have you there. Don't be hesitant, and ask lots of questions. The worst thing you could do is assume and not know. When we give out the briefing at the beginning of the game, I always ask if anybody has any questions. Don't be afraid to chime in! (If your afraid to chime in, you can always come pull one of us aside and ask privately)
I have to admit I have found myself brushing off some of the new players once in a while, but the only time I have done that is when the new players think they know everything about airsoft already, or are being really annoying and constantly asking how much money I've spent on ______ (trust me, you don' t want to know, and you'll find out for yourself soon enough). If you want to know about my gear, that's fine, ask me, I'm happy to show anybody. Don't, however, ask me what gun I have then try to tell me how it works. (I think I know my gear)
Basically what I guess I'm saying is a lot (but not all) of the new generation has an entitled and disrespectful attitude. Be humble, ask questions rather than assume, be respectful to your fellow players, and remember that IT"S JUST A GAME, you have nothing to loose, so be honest. Do that and you'll get along great.
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I'm X-Army and I like what XavierMace said respect for uniform, rank and awards this is where I have a problem. Now the other is the lack of basic instruction for gun safety and marksmanship. I was at the last shot show the word in the shooting industry is pro Shooters are using airsoft and airguns to now get practice time. Where talking Steel Challenge, IDPA and 3 Gun pro shooters now using airsoft and what I heard is 3Gun Nation is entertaining the thought of adding airsoft as a qualifier. Guys we should not miss this boat we need to add action shooting programs to the airsoft world.
I see the indoor field that carter to kids and their families have bad rep with some of the adult and older shooters. They say kids rifle thru their equipment and the owners take the kids side, come on what a Joke. No other shooting place you will see so many unsafe acts like what I have seen in the wait area. To take a kid 10 to 12 years old and have them take a tac course and never take a safety course this is sad. This sets the kids up the wrong way. Than again airsoft industry in most cases are run by someone who is in the business of selling airsoft guns and not certified as a instructor or coach. I also see the range/arena/field are run by Teens/young twenty something. The industry does not require any kind of formal training like a RSO course. If you are opening a business indoor or outside you have a responsibility to the parents and kids that walk thru the door. Airsoft industry could add a big increase to the shooting industry if they would add some shooting disciplines and have those programs mirror the rules of the firearm counter part.
NRA is looking to add some airsoft marksmanship programs we need to show them we are open to this. I do not care who you are in the airsoft world every one needs to improve shot, hold and position why are we not adding sports that improve the industry. Now all I here is Milsim this milsim that this does chase those who would participate in the airsoft industry if they offered safety and some kind of shooting sports.
The next thing is the firearm world does not help you in legislation state, city or national is because most airsoft shooters are limited in mind set. Why would we not want NRA or Right to Bear arms to help? Numbers is what our government listens to. These guys have lobbyists already in your state or nationally. Why are we not pushing the airsoft industry to become NRA Club/Business members of NRA and push the NRA membership to each person that come to our buildings or fields etc?
When I talk to parents about airsoft I here in most cases they shoot at each other and that's all they do. Now I talk to them and educate them that airsoft does have shooting disciplines world wide. Now we have a Governing body for Actions steel target, 3 gun and IDPA here in the USA. Indoor and outdoor field/arena etc. could add more business there building or outdoor field by adding these shooting sports.
Umarex USA, INC/Elite Force guys are starting to do IASS air/airsoft action steel target and 3 gun. I will be at the intro May 9 2015 Fort Smith AR. These guys and gals are going to become certified NRA pistol coaches level 1.
Here is my few cents.