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Offline HavHav

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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2003, 12:11:12 PM »
Couldn't they just use the body of a P90 if people wanted them so badly? Make a permanant magazine up top, but have the real one in the very back (bull pup style) and just use .22 or 9mm. Just a thought.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by HavHav »

Offline Paco

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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2003, 01:36:39 PM »
Well, if you read above, the ammo is no longer a consideration since there is 5.7x28mm available to the public.  The considerations then become the barrel length (needs to be 16" minimum w/o registering it as a SBR), and the magazine capacity.  As far as I know neither one of those obstacles can be overcome without support by the manufacturer - in this case, FN.  FN is very much anti when it comes to selling their firearms to the general public.  They are pretty much LEO/Military sales only, but they did start making 10rd mags for the Five-Seven, obviously so that civilians can own the pistol.  It could be that they are waiting for the 94 AWB to expire, which would remove the high capacity magazine restriction.  Making a longer barrel on the P90 would not put them out too much, and civilians would jump at the chance to buy it, and hide it with a fake suppressor or cut it and register it as a SBR.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Paco »

Offline TheCrow

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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2003, 04:14:33 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Paco</i>
<br />At that price, are you sure it's not  USR rather than an AUG?  They look the same, but the AUG is much more costly.  The only AUG (NOT "USR/AUG") I have seen for that low of a price was $3.5K and was well used, came with no mags, no box, etc.  Mind if I ask where you saw them for that price, because if they are AUG's and not USR's, $3K for a preban AUG is a steal of a price, and since AUG's can't be imported any more, they will only go up in value.  A very good investment.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I am more than sure about the model.  They were AUGs, not USRs.  If I remember correctly, the last one I saw was at Bear Arms and they wanted @ $3600 for it.  There was one at the last gun show for about the same amount.  They were used, but not beat up POS.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by TheCrow »

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Offline Basher

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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2003, 07:58:54 PM »
Paco,

I knew civvies couldn't own them due to the 5.7, but I didn't know they were that inexpensive! Seems to make sense, though, with them being so small and made mostly out of composite materials.

My reference to the AUG's was regarding semi/full-auto rifles. I've seen those as high as $15,000 at some shows. Those have a nice heft to them. [:D]

Now, FN just needs to get smart and make a 9mm version of the P-90. That would open sales up in the US for Class III's anyway. By this I mean a semi-auto 9mm. Class III would involve the "under 16inch" barrel. (Am I correct on this?)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Basher »

Offline Harley

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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2003, 09:18:21 PM »
You're referring to an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle) and no it doesn't fall under Class 3 (Full Auto's) but rather it's an AOW (Any Other Weapon) which any dealer that has his SOT tax stamp can sell them.  Tough market to sell in since you still need to pay the $200 tax stamp and jump through all the hoops like you would for a full auto gun, but some people do it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline TheCrow

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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2003, 06:01:58 AM »
I thought an SBR could be had for a $5 tax stamp, not $200.

Here is a link about it.

http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/NFA/NFAAOWSales.html?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by TheCrow »

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Offline Paco

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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2003, 08:10:35 AM »
The tax stamp for a SBR or SBS is $200.  The only NFA item with anything other than the $200 tax stamp is an "AOW" (pen gun, smooth bore pistol, etc.) which is $5.  

According to the ATF, ALL SBR's, SBS's, AOW's (and more) are class III/NFA weapons, but can fall under different categories within that grouping (SBR, SBS, AOW, DD, etc...).  An SBR or SBS is not an "AOW".  They are two distinct categories under NFA items.

Vell, the SGC page you linked to is a bit deceiving because that shotgun they show is <b>not</b> an "AOW" which would carry the $5 tax stamp.  It's a SBS (if it's under 16" barrel rifle, 18" barrel/shotgun or 26" overall), and would require a $200 tax stamp.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
GENERAL INFO ON NFA WEAPONS

                      Key to Abbreviations

AOW - any other weapon
ATF - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
ATT - Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division of the IRS, the pre-68
administrators of the NFA
C&R - curio and relic
CFR - Code of Federal Regulations
DD  - destructive device
FET - federal excise tax
FFL - federal firearms license
GCA - Gun Control Act
NFA - National Firearms Act
SOT - special (occupational) taxpayer
USC - United States Code
DEWAT - De-activated war trophy

What are NFA Weapons?  

      There are two kinds of firearms under U.S. (federal) law,
title 1 firearms and title 2.  Title 1 firearms are long guns
(rifles and shotguns), handguns, firearm frames or receivers, and
most NFA weapons are also title 1 firearms.  Title 2
weapons are NFA weapons.  Title 2 of the 1968 Gun Control Act is
the National Firearms Act (26 USC sec. 5801 et seq.), hence NFA.
Title 1 is generally called the Gun Control Act, (18 USC sec. 921
et seq.).  NFA weapons are sometimes called class 3 weapons,
because a class 3 SOT (see below) is needed to deal in NFA weapons.
 
     These weapons may also be further regulated by states or
localities, and while these weapons can be legally owned under
federal law, some states and localities further regulate ownership
or prohibit it (see below).   The NFA Branch of ATF administers the
National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record, which
necessarily encompasses most of the NFA regulation.

     NFA weapons are: machine guns, sound suppressors (aka
silencers), short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles,
destructive devices and "any other weapons". A machine gun is any
gun that can fire more than one shot with a single pull of the
trigger, or a receiver of a machine gun, or a combination of parts
for assembling a machine gun, or a part or set of parts for
converting a gun into a machine gun.  A silencer is any device for
muffling the gunshot of a portable firearm, or any part exclusively
designed or intended for such a device (see discussion below).  A
short barreled shotgun is any shotgun (shoulder fired, smooth bore)
with a barrel of less than 18" or an overall length of less than
26", or any weapon made from a shotgun falling into the same
length  parameters.  A short barreled rifle is a rifle (shoulder
fired, rifled  bore) with a barrel length of less than 16", or an
overall length of  less than 26", or any weapon made from a rifle
falling into the same length parameters (like a pistol made from
a rifle).  In measuring barrel length you do it from the closed
breech to the muzzle, see 27 CFR sec. 179.11.  To measure overall
length do so along, "the distance between the extreme ends of
the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line
of the bore."  27 CFR sec. 179.11.  On a folding stock weapon you
measure with the stock extended, provided the stock is not
readily detachable, and the weapon is meant to be fired from the shoulder.
A destructive device  (DD) is a explosive, incendiary or
poison gas weapon, or any firearm with a bore over 1/2", with
exceptions for sporting shotguns, among other things (see
discussion below).   Any other weapons (AOW's) are a number of
things; smooth bore pistols, any pistol with more than one grip,
gadget type guns (cane gun, pen gun) and shoulder fired weapons
with both rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12" and 18", that
must be manually reloaded (see discussion below).  These
definitions are simplified, to see if a specific gun is a title 1
or 2 firearm one needs to refer to the specific definition under
the statute(s), and possibly consult with the Technology Branch of
ATF.   There is also case law on the issue of whether a  specific
item falls into one of these categories.

Owning or making an NFA weapon

     It is illegal for anyone to have possession of an NFA weapon
that is not registered to them in the NFA Registry.   It is also
not possible for anyone, except law enforcement, to register an
existing NFA weapon that is not registered, except immediately
after one is made by a class 2 NFA manufacturer.  An individual
otherwise able to own any gun under federal law can receive and own
any NFA weapon (local law permitting, ATF cannot approve a transfer
where federal, state or local law would be violated by the
transferee possessing the weapon in question, see 26 USC sec.
5812(a)(6)) on a Form 4, "Application for Tax Paid Transfer and
Registration of Firearm".  Non-FFL holders may  only purchase an
NFA weapon from a dealer or individual within their own  state.  If
the weapon is located out of state it must be transferred to a  
class 3 dealer within the state, before transfer to the non FFL
purchaser.   C&R FFL holders (type 03) may purchase C&R NFA guns
from out of state  dealers and individuals.  Type 01 FFL holders
may purchase any fully  transferrable (no dealer samples, see
below) NFA weapon, from  an out of state source. If the FFL holder
is an individual he must submit  fingerprints, photograph, and the
law enforcement certification.

     The transfer involves paying the transfer tax, which is $200
for  all the NFA weapons, except AOW's for which the tax is a mere
$5.    Individuals also have to get one of several specified local
chief law enforcement officers to sign the form (see the section on
the law enforcement certification for more information), submit
their fingerprints in duplicate, and attach photos of the
transferee to the form.   While the transfer tax is levied by law
on the transferor (seller), in practice the transferee (buyer) is
expected to pay the tax.  Transfers to individuals tend to take at
least 4 months, although subesquent transfers can be quicker.

     Or you can make any NFA weapon, except for machine guns (see
below), by filing a Form 1, "Application to Make and Register a
Firearm", and paying the $200 making tax, which applies to all of
these  weapons, including AOW's.  You may not make the proposed
weapon until  the Form 1 is returned to you approved.  The law
enforcement certification,  photos and fingerprints also apply to
Form 1's, and in fact to any transaction to an individual.
Additionally the manufacturer of any NFA weapon,  including an
individual making one on a Form 1 must mark the receiver of the
weapon with the maker's name and city and state.  NFA Branch can
grant exemptions from this for DD's.  All types of corporations, including
corporate type 01 FFL holders, need not do the certification,
photo  and fingerprint requirements.   Any of the forms listed, and
the  fingerprint cards, are available for free from ATF, either in
Washington, D.C. or your local office.

     The original of the paperwork, particularly any that have tax
stamps on them (Form 1 or 4) should be kept in a safe place.  ATF
can demand to see the form (see below on your 4th amendment
rights).  On a tax paid transfer, ATF puts a tax stamp, like a
postage stamp (or like the one that caused the American colonists
to take up arms), on the document.  You paid $200 (or $5) for it,
and it is worth that.  It is unwise to lose the original form.  
They should be kept in a safe deposit box.  Tax exempt forms (Form
2, 3, 5, 6, 10) have no tax stamp, and a copy of the form from ATF,
should the original be lost, will be fine.  ATF can give you a new
tax stamp should you lose one, but expect a hard time, and they
have discretion in doing it.   It is not unheard of for ATF to have
no record in their computer of a weapon registered to you.  The
paperwork can avoid a lot of hassles.   Additionally, if the gun in
question is a machine gun, not having the paperwork can lead to
being charged with a violation of 18 USC sec. 922(o).  A federal
circuit court of appeals has ruled (US v. Just, - F.3d - (8th Cir. 1996))
that that law prohibits possessing all machine guns, and it is an affirmative
defense to such a charge that the weapon was legally possessed before
it took effect.  It is up to the defendant to prove such a defense,
usually by a lower evidentiary standard than the government needs to
prove to show a criminal violation (usually preponderance of the evidence
versus beyond a reasonable doubt).  It is not up to the government to
prove the weapon was not registered, for a charge under sec. 922(o).  If you
don't have the paperwork, and it isn't in ATF's computer, (it is
likely they will check, even though they don't have to prove non-
registration) you can have a serious problem.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Paco »

Offline Harley

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« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2003, 10:00:10 AM »
I stand corrected, leave it the encylopedia man to correct me... [:p]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline Paco

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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2003, 10:03:40 AM »
lol...

You're definitely right about the tax stamp price on the SBR's, and right about it being difficult to sell them.  [:)]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Paco »

Offline Harley

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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2003, 10:05:41 AM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TheCrow</i>
<br />I thought an SBR could be had for a $5 tax stamp, not $200.

Here is a link about it.

http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/NFA/NFAAOWSales.html?


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Vell I think the difference is that it can't have a shoulder stock to be classified as an AOW shotgun, otherwise it's then considered a SBS.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline TheCrow

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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2003, 04:14:18 PM »
Then what is the difference between the Mossberg here:

http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/NFA/NFAAOWSales.html?

and the Remington here:

http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/NFA/NF ... Sales.html

They both have short, smooth bore barrels and pistol grips.  The confusion sets in...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by TheCrow »

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Offline Paco

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« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2003, 04:38:36 PM »
Good question.  The page on the mossberg says this:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Mossberg produces their short-barreled Compact model 5901A1 for Law Enforcement use with a 14" barrel. The civilian version of this firearm that they manufacture is classified as an AOW (Any-Other-Weapon) and it is in this configuration that we carry it in stock. This is an AOW (Any-Other-Weapon) instead of a Class III short-barreled shotgun because Mossberg, at the time of manufacture, registered it as such; making the acquisition process less expensive as the transfer fee is only $5.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

and if you click on the link for it, it shows it WITH a stock.  I don't know if that has something to do with it.  I also don't know why/how it's classified as an "AOW" rather than a "SBS".  Not sure the difference and how this mossberg is skirting around being classified as an SBS.  

I think the remington is less than the total overall length and is therefore a SBS.  The mossberg (because of the full stock?  I'm not sure which picture is accurate since they have two for it - one with a full stock and one without) makes it comply with the minimum length.

Boy, with so many dumb laws, who knows?  I can't keep up on it all, and I'll admit that I don't have much interest in shotguns, so I haven't done much research on the laws as the pertain to shotguns.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Paco »

Offline TheCrow

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« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2003, 06:41:54 PM »
Like I said, the confusion sets in...

I just wish everything would be legal.  It is much simpler that way.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by TheCrow »

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Offline Legs

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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2003, 11:21:46 PM »
Don't worry your pretty little head about it, Vellcito...you own a LAW 12!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Legs »
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Offline Harley

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« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2003, 11:59:06 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TheCrow</i>
<br />Then what is the difference between the Mossberg here:

http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/NFA/NFAAOWSales.html?

and the Remington here:

http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/NFA/NF ... Sales.html

They both have short, smooth bore barrels and pistol grips.  The confusion sets in...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Here's your answer, it looks like they took an SBS and installed a pistol grip.  If the gun was originally registered as an SBS so it has to stay that way.

"This is a specially manufactured precision-engineered short-barreled shotgun made by the Armory, the base model is a Remington 870 Wingmaster. This unit sports a pistol grip rather than the normal buttstock."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
\"Just because you\'re paranoid, doesn\'t mean they\'re not out to get you!\"

\"Have Gun - Will Travel\"