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Offline Raith

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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2003, 06:58:19 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Harley</i>
<br />For the same unknown reason why Marui labels their M4 as an A1 when in fact it's an A3.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The real weapon that the Marui M4A1 is replicating does have a military nomenclature of M4A1.  The flattop, full auto capable M16 Rifle is an M16A3, but the flattop, full auto M4 Carbine is an M4A1.  I don't know why there isn't consistency in these other than because the M4A1 was the first revision. (hence A1, I guess)

We create a firearms forum and here we are talking about airsoft in it. [:P]

EDIT: Furthermore, (As I understand it, anyways) the suffix designations (A1, A2, etc) are descriptive of the trigger group, and to a lesser extent, the sights.  M16A1s have the older style sights (A1 style) and full auto capability.  M16A2s have the newer sights and 3 round burst.  A3s have full auto and a flattop.  A4s have 3 round burst and a flattop.  What lots of people seem to do is link the looks of the weapon to its designation, which you can't really do in this case.  There are many A1s still around, but likely they "look" like A2s with a swapped out upper, round handguards, etc.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Raith »
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Offline Harley

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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2003, 08:28:13 PM »
I'll have to debate you on that one Matt.  I'm sure I've seen them designated as A1, A2, and A3 by the upper receiver style.  More to follow.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline azsarge

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« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2003, 12:32:16 AM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Harley</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by azsarge</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Harley</i>
[brHK MP5SD3 Navy lower, suppressed full-auto
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Also known as the SD6 in the airsoft world.  (For reasons that are still beyond me)[:P]

I had the chance to fire an SD2 with SEF group a long while ago.  Fun Times![}:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

For the same unknown reason why Marui labels their M4 as an A1 when in fact it's an A3.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The Marui gun is indeed an M4A1.  There is no rifle in US inventory with the designation M4A2/A3/etc.  Now, mind you, civilian designations are different, and are SOMETIMES indicative of the trigger group (lower), but the Military does it differently.  It goes in sequence, whatver changes are made are labled as the next sequential number (ie, the next M4 variant, no matter the changes, will be the M4A2).  Civilian variants are all screwed up numerically, with M4gery's, M15's, AR15's, SR16's, uppers, lowers, pre-ban, post-ban, and all kinds of god-awful legal restrictions on firearms.  It all makes for one FUBAR designation system.  It cannot be done systematically, nor objectively.  There are too many variables.

As far as weapons are concerned, I could care less about civilian firearm designations.  If it's Military I will call it by what it is (M4A1, M16A4, etc).  If I buy as a civvie, its JUST an AR15.  

Now, about that Marui.  The traits of Safe/Semi/Full lower, flattop upper reciever, etc denote it as an M4A1.  The 14.5 inch, notched, 1/7 twist barrel, double heat shield forward handgrip is what makes it an M4.  The original M4 (non A1, referred to as the Model 720) had these same characteristics, but with a fixed carry handle (most of the time), and A2 style sights.  The Model 720 was sometimes referred to as the M16A2 Carbine, due to it's similarities, one of which was the shared reciever.  Of course the M16A2 has a 3-round burst limiter, as did the Original M4 (Model 720).  The later model, the M4A1, had full auto capability.  Some versions of the M4 was fitted with a flattop reciever, but was made standard for A1 variants.  Hell, I have even seen 733's with flat-tops.  Oh, and there was a Model 723 that used the M16A1 reciever, but not many existed, so I won't go into that.  My point is that all rifles have thier own designations.  Some are similar, but some aren't.  The M4A1 designation is somethng marui got right.  

Now, while I'm at it (fell free to correct me):
MP5 A1-safe/semi/full trigger group.  No stock.
MP5 A2-safe/semi/full.  Fixed stock.
MP5 A3-safe/semi/full.  Collapsible stock.
MP5 A4-safe/semi/3 rd/full.  No Stock.
MP5 A5-safe/semi/3 rd/full.  Fixed Stock
MP5 A6-safe/semi/3 rd/full.  Collapsible stock.

The SD series corresponds with these.  No difference if the A1-A3 is labled as SEF, instead of the pictoral labels.  The airsoft designations are completely screwed up, and I cannot for the life of me figure out what the heck they were thinking.  Also, due to the lack of 3 rd burst MP5 weapons in airsoft, nothing over A3 (or SD3) exists [in airsoft], despite the incorrect AEG lables.  As far as I know, the designations are the same for all MP5 weapons, whether they are in civilian or military use.  This excludes the MP5 SF, which is Single Fire (not Special Forces).  An MP5 Navy is simply a A2 or A3 with a special Flash Hider (and other small, mainly internal, differences).  Now, I could be wrong, or be excluding something.  This info is the result of my thirst for the truth, and is a result of hours of cross-referencing my numbers.  It's not just from one book or website.  John, you owned one.  Whats your input?

I know better than to argue with someone about civilian firearms (especially YOU, John!), but military hardware has always interested me.  I am pretty sure the info presented here is sound.  Feel free to correct me if it is anything but.

Cheers, and I'm out!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by azsarge »
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Offline Harley

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« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2003, 07:06:47 AM »
Well there you got then.  Anything after an M16A1E2 is beyond what I've had actual experience with so thanks for the history lesson Christian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline Raith

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« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2003, 10:29:52 AM »
Yes, Christian should be right.  He puts it much more elegantly than I did.

Another Marui misnomer is the M733.  Colt calls it an RO733, and the military designation probably isn't M733 anyways.  And I think a 733 would've had A1 style sights and no brass deflector. (IIRC)  So the Marui M733 might be closer to a 933, but I don't quite remember.

There are so many designations that can differ between what the manufacturer names their stuff, what the military calls it, and what the "civilian" market calls it that its hard to keep track of what is what.

This is all a bit too type A for most people, I'm sure. [:P]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Raith »
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Raven1

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« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2003, 11:32:05 AM »
The adult butterfly tastes with it's hind feet!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Raven1 »
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Offline Harley

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« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2003, 12:44:57 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Raven1</i>
<br />The adult butterfly tastes with it's hind feet!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

And that just in from our Discovery Channel friends. [:)]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline SHIFTY1944

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« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2003, 09:53:17 PM »
C'mon lets not get airsoft and real steel mixed up in this area.This is a FIREARMS only area.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by SHIFTY1944 »
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Offline Harley

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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2003, 10:06:13 PM »
Now now shifty, every day is an oportunity to learn something new.  In this example we learned a lot from both the Real Steel world and the Airsoft world.  Never pass up an opportunity to learn something, it may just save your life.

Now, who else has some "what do you have" items to list???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline ocmsrzr

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« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2003, 12:07:44 AM »
Can anyone play this game? lol
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by ocmsrzr »
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Offline SHIFTY1944

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« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2003, 02:27:05 AM »
Now that everyone has posted their list of toys...we need to set up a real steel shoot day.Whos with me?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by SHIFTY1944 »
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Offline TheCrow

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« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2003, 09:07:50 AM »
Harley already posted one.  The shoot was yesterday.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by TheCrow »
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Offline busta_cap

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« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2003, 10:26:57 AM »
Haha Shifty, thats what you get for not checking the active topics thoroughly. Well on a side note, that really sucks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by busta_cap »
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Offline Basher

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« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2003, 05:35:15 PM »
Well, how about scheduling one for January? I'll be 18 by then, and more than happy to go out to the range for a while. I'll need to zero my new Leupy! [:D]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Basher »
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Offline Harley

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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2003, 07:57:44 AM »
There will be lots of shoots coming up Basher.  Paco has a new web site he's working on dedicated to Everything real steel related in AZ.  I'll let him fill you guys in on the rest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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