Airsoft Arizona

Off-Topic Forums => Real Firearms => Topic started by: SHIFTY1944 on January 27, 2004, 10:15:20 PM

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Post by: SHIFTY1944 on January 27, 2004, 10:15:20 PM: As always...check the gun show.Look no further.
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Post by: yellowmonkey on January 28, 2004, 12:26:39 AM: *shudder*... Mr. Joseph I hope you aren't planning on shooting someone with those. [:O] ... but yeah, the gunshow has everything.
Has anyone ever seen those "flamethrower" shells? They supposedly shoot a fireball out the barrel a few meters. I'm sure they would screw up your barrel, but I would like to know what they can do.
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Post by: azsarge on January 28, 2004, 12:43:22 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by yellowmonkey
 *shudder*... Mr. Joseph I hope you aren't planning on shooting someone with those. [:O] ... but yeah, the gunshow has everything.
Has anyone ever seen those "flamethrower" shells? They supposedly shoot a fireball out the barrel a few meters. I'm sure they would screw up your barrel, but I would like to know what they can do.
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Dragon's Breath, quite a show!

Mendell's (sp?) Shooting Supply on Scottsdale Rd. (Old Town Scottsdale) has a large variety of what I call "novelty" shells for 12G. Everything from Beanerbags to Bolo's, and all kinds of crazy crap. One has a bunch of little saws in it. Nasty stuff.

Keep in mind that NL rounds like baton rounds CAN be lethal at a close enough range. (This could be a plus for home defense)
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Post by: leakingpen on January 28, 2004, 08:52:28 AM: novelty shotgun rounds, ahh what fun. my personal fav are the flechette rounds. NASTY!
yeah, the flame rounds are VERY bad for your barrel. its pretty much chunks of white phosphorous vacuum packed in plastic inside the shell. so it starts flaming a bit with the oxygen already in the barrel. NOT good for the life of your barrel.
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Post by: Paco on January 28, 2004, 10:44:46 AM: Dragon's breath: defend your home from an intruder and burn it all down at the same time.

I think the true nomencalture for the "bean bag rounds" (and similar loads) are "less-lethal" rather than "non-lethal" since (as azsarge pointed out) they still CAN be lethal.
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Post by: Screwloose on January 28, 2004, 10:53:11 AM: Paco beat me too it.

I have seen a bunch of different shotgun rounds at the Spy Headquarters in Mesa, of all places. They also have the exploding targets there too. . .
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Post by: Mr. Joseph on January 28, 2004, 11:12:57 AM: Ill just have to wait until I get to phoenix then. Yes, less lethal would be good. Honestly, my aunt has gone crazy and threatened my dads life with her .45. I bought my dad a shotgun for christmas, and hed like to have a less lethal round as the first round.

Thanks for the help.
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Post by: leakingpen on January 28, 2004, 12:10:51 PM: how about avoiding her? having her institutionalized if shes gone bonkers? giving him a shotgun, lethal or not, is just creating a situation for a death to occur. Flat out.
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Post by: Greg on January 28, 2004, 12:15:53 PM: DeltaForce.com has tons of them. Look at pages 26 & 27 of the online catalog. They have double slugs, blanks, breaching rounds, and all the less-than-lethal stuff, too.
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Post by: Harley on January 28, 2004, 01:46:25 PM: Last I knew Bean Bag rounds were not legal to use. I'd check first before wasting my time looking for some.
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Post by: arsenal on January 28, 2004, 01:53:31 PM: I have found that paint rounds are probably the safest (yet still effective) round to use as a non-lethal round. Zytel rounds (bean bag rounds) can still be lethal under 21 feet. A paint round is travelling about 450-500 fps and will provide quite a shock (and mess) to the person on the receiving end of a shotgun paint round. Spy HQ usually carries them at an outrageous price ($10 for five).
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Post by: Mr. Joseph on January 28, 2004, 01:56:29 PM: I found some that are legal to sell to civilians.

Leakingpen, she has been institutionalized, and is currently being looked at by the county prosecutor. However, she still has a gun, and still has a car. Those two things are enough for a crazy person like her to come end my fathers life, which I will not allow to happen. Sometimes situations escalate in life, and one must take drastic steps. Im not a stupid child, any one of you would consider the same if facing this situation.

Thanks greg, I found some at firequest.com, but I'll look there too. They are really expensive, 25 to 30 bux for 5 for them, plus shipping.
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Post by: Basher on January 28, 2004, 01:59:37 PM: Either directly or indirectly, those beanbag rounds can be lethal. I've seen a video from here in town where there was a guy with a gun to his head, and when the officer shot him with a bean bag round, his sympathetic reflexes kicked in, and his whole body tensed up, trigger finger included. The lawsuit afterwards was not pretty.

Personally, I think if I'm going to point a gun at someone, I want them to understand that I mean business. Family may be different, but it's like on AR15.com. Somebody came up with the great idea of a RIS-mounted Taser. Everyone agreed that if the chips are that far down that you have to point your weapon at the person, all the messing around's over with.

Get a restraining order on your aunt. If that doesn't work, then try getting her institutionalised like LP said. It may suck, but you are actively trying to help which may mean something to hear once she comes to her senses.
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Post by: Paco on January 28, 2004, 02:16:02 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mr. Joseph
 I found some that are legal to sell to civilians.

Leakingpen, she has been institutionalized, and is currently being looked at by the county prosecutor. However, she still has a gun, and still has a car. Those two things are enough for a crazy person like her to come end my fathers life, which I will not allow to happen. Sometimes situations escalate in life, and one must take drastic steps. Im not a stupid child, any one of you would consider the same if facing this situation.

Thanks greg, I found some at firequest.com, but I'll look there too. They are really expensive, 25 to 30 bux for 5 for them, plus shipping.
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If she has been committed and it was for metal reasons, all you have to do is call the local law enforcement or ATF on her. IIRC, it is ILLEGAL for someone who has been committed for mental reasons, to own or be in posession of a firearm.
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Post by: SHIFTY1944 on January 28, 2004, 03:09:15 PM: Joey,I would just stick with 00 buck shot...don't go easy on someone who has nothing to lose.
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Post by: leakingpen on January 28, 2004, 03:10:53 PM: also, if shes been institionalized, and found to be a danger, (which she is) then she can be put in a higher security facility. sounds like it needs to happen. yeah, it takes time, and yeah, theres a danger until its done, but there are some other steps too. perhaps staying at a hotel on the opposite side of town for a week or so while things get done. you want to avoid a firefight, and with the belief that he can take her down without killing her, your father WILL be less likely to strive to avoid it. it sucks to say it, but 99 times out of 100, its true.
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Post by: Mr. Joseph on January 28, 2004, 03:33:36 PM: Well, they dont want to institutionalize her because she has a daughter that everyone in the family is concerned for.

Paco, I'll look into what you said. The policeman that came to our house, and later went to hers, didnt take the firearm. Her husband said he had taken it from her, and didnt even let the cops in the house. I guess they felt they couldnt just go in and take it. Needless to say though, I wish her no harm, but if she comes up my driveway with a .45 full of hollowpoints, shes gonna get shot, and I would prefer to take her down with a bean bag than take her leg off or put a hole in her lung.

Well, I found some, and I'll most likely buy them just in case. Thanks for the help.

Joey
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Post by: Paco on January 28, 2004, 04:27:47 PM: Well, you can send her to jail by making a call.

http://www.firearmslawcenter.com/conten ... p#bradylaw (http://www.firearmslawcenter.com/content/Federallawsummary.asp#bradylaw)

Specifically - http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/t ... 18&sec=922 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=922)

The following people cannot have firearms:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is under indictment for or has been convicted in any court of a felony;

Is a fugitive from justice;

Is an unlawful user of a controlled substance;

Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution;

Is an illegal alien;

Has been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces;

Has renounced his or her citizenship;

Is subject to a court order issued after a hearing which restrains him or her from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of an intimate partner; or

Has been convicted of a misdemeanor domestic violence offense.
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Post by: Screwloose on January 28, 2004, 04:56:15 PM: Hey if someone has a gun and comes to threatens to hurt my family, friends or me, god will be their savior. Case closed.
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Post by: Mr. Joseph on January 28, 2004, 05:20:27 PM: Thank you, everyones got an opinion on that episode of cops, but not everyone is in the situation. At least I dont have an automatic weapon with a tac vest full of loaded magazines hanging ready. I just want to put that crazy bitch on her ass if she comes at my dad with a .45.
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Post by: Harley on January 28, 2004, 09:23:38 PM: Buy him an Airtaser instead. Non lethal and has around 20 feet of range. I know where you can buy one for $350, but it's in Chandler.
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Post by: Mr. Joseph on January 28, 2004, 11:10:13 PM: With an air taser, he'll get one shot, and I dont know how accurate it is. If a bean bag cant take her down, or if she sits back up and raises a .45, there are 4 12 gauge buckshot rounds behind the beanbag.
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Post by: CADD on January 29, 2004, 11:19:04 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by yellowmonkey
 *shudder*... Mr. Joseph I hope you aren't planning on shooting someone with those. [:O] ... but yeah, the gunshow has everything.
Has anyone ever seen those "flamethrower" shells? They supposedly shoot a fireball out the barrel a few meters. I'm sure they would screw up your barrel, but I would like to know what they can do.
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I have inciderary shells, flame thrower shells and ''anti-sniper'' shells for my benelli coming in...

about 6 of each type.... can't wait to fire them!
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Post by: CADD on January 29, 2004, 11:22:40 AM: I am not 100% on the anti-sniper but my understanding is they are little arrow quivers instead of bbs... so you can fire them into trees and heavy brush and thiese rounds will shread everything - correct me if im wrong... will get pics once they arrive.
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Post by: leakingpen on January 29, 2004, 12:08:43 PM: that would be the flechette rounds. about 50 to 100 little darts. pretty much a cloud of metal that punches through most all cover. not really lethal, except at close range, unless youre lucky, but the screams of pain alert you to those who lurk.
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Post by: CADD on January 29, 2004, 01:01:18 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen
 that would be the flechette rounds. about 50 to 100 little darts. pretty much a cloud of metal that punches through most all cover. not really lethal, except at close range, unless youre lucky, but the screams of pain alert you to those who lurk.
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oh most fun!!!!!
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Post by: leakingpen on January 29, 2004, 02:18:13 PM: the ones I've seen before were loosely loaded, but made in such a way that you could put more in if you wanted, and came with a bottle of extra flechetes to use in packing them more dense if you want. More flechetes = less penetration, larger cloud.

of course, i cant help but wonder if im the only person to use an airsoft gun to propel a dart.
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Post by: azsarge on January 29, 2004, 02:38:34 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen
 the ones I've seen before were loosely loaded, but made in such a way that you could put more in if you wanted, and came with a bottle of extra flechetes to use in packing them more dense if you want. More flechetes = less penetration, larger cloud.

of course, i cant help but wonder if im the only person to use an airsoft gun to propel a dart.

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[note to self]NEVER play airsoft with this dude!! EVER.[/note to self]
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Post by: leakingpen on January 29, 2004, 03:20:04 PM: what? not like id do that in a game. just tried it out to see if it would work better than the cheap dart guns you can buy at walmart. (note, it does, but only if you have a bb chambered.)
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Post by: CADD on January 29, 2004, 03:22:16 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azsarge
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen
 the ones I've seen before were loosely loaded, but made in such a way that you could put more in if you wanted, and came with a bottle of extra flechetes to use in packing them more dense if you want. More flechetes = less penetration, larger cloud.

of course, i cant help but wonder if im the only person to use an airsoft gun to propel a dart.

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[note to self]NEVER play airsoft with this dude!! EVER.[/note to self]
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just be a better (or faster) shot...
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Post by: Screwloose on January 29, 2004, 07:10:47 PM: The Flechette rounds I have fired are not made to penetrate, just really make someone think twice about life. I shot one at a phone book from maybe 10 feet. None of them got through the phone book, but they did shread it nicely.
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Post by: azsarge on January 30, 2004, 12:43:55 AM: You guys know they make flechette rounds for the 155mm howies, right? I saw one once. Cool stuff. Good story, too!
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Post by: Harley on January 30, 2004, 07:10:28 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mr. Joseph
 With an air taser, he'll get one shot, and I dont know how accurate it is. If a bean bag cant take her down, or if she sits back up and raises a .45, there are 4 12 gauge buckshot rounds behind the beanbag.
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Why don't you just buy him a big dog then? If she comes in the house while he's sleeping it won't matter what he has on hand as he probably won't have time to get to it anyway. I've got a closet full of guns, but my first line of defense is my two Rottweilers. They'll give me my early defense warning and the time I need to grab one of my guns before someone has a chance to get close enough to me, if they make it that far that is. [;)]
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Post by: Greg on January 30, 2004, 12:30:17 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mr. Joseph
 With an air taser, he'll get one shot, and I dont know how accurate it is. If a bean bag cant take her down, or if she sits back up and raises a .45, there are 4 12 gauge buckshot rounds behind the beanbag.
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Why don't you just buy him a big dog then? If she comes in the house while he's sleeping it won't matter what he has on hand as he probably won't have time to get to it anyway. I've got a closet full of guns, but my first line of defense is my two Rottweilers. They'll give me my early defense warning and the time I need to grab one of my guns before someone has a chance to get close enough to me, if they make it that far that is. [;)]
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That must be nice. I think my doberman would sleep through anything short of an air raid. [:)]
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Post by: Mr. Joseph on January 30, 2004, 01:44:14 PM: Harley, if you were in the same temporary situation, with only a shotgun and two Jack Russel Teriers, would you buy, raise, and train a dog, or just get a box of shotgun shells that hopefully wont kill your would-be murderer?
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Post by: Harley on January 30, 2004, 03:40:22 PM: Well the dog pound is full of great dogs looking for a good home, so that's not really a good excuse. Just my .02 worth Joey. And to be totally honest with you, if someone was out to kill me, I wouldn't be so concerned with trying not to kill them at the time I was defending myself. My priority would be staying alive. So tell dad to load up on some 00 buckshot and keep the scatter gun close by.
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Post by: HavHav on January 30, 2004, 03:43:14 PM: If you do get 2 dogs, and crazy old lady decides to come attack your dad, if those dogs do attack her and she survives, she will claim that she was just visiting, and your dogs will be put down.
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Post by: Harley on January 30, 2004, 04:00:38 PM: That's when you put her down and make sure she has a weapon. Better to have the dogs put down then you planted 6 feet under.
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Post by: marve467 on January 30, 2004, 07:10:40 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen
 that would be the flechette rounds. about 50 to 100 little darts. pretty much a cloud of metal that punches through most all cover. not really lethal, except at close range, unless youre lucky, but the screams of pain alert you to those who lurk.
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haha, now that is a good invention,... did u hear a noise, ya in that bush, boom, owwwwww, haha insane
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Post by: azsarge on January 30, 2004, 11:40:02 PM: I beg to differ that flechette rounds aren't lethal. They are just as lethal as buckshot, and penetrate better. I have seen the effects, and it isn't pretty.
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Post by: Screwloose on January 31, 2004, 12:03:34 AM: Yeah I never said it was pretty. As for penetration, in the right places it does not need to go deep to kill you. The Flechette rounds I was fireing would not penetrate as much as buckshot because they do not have as much mass as the buckshot does.
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Post by: yellowmonkey on February 01, 2004, 10:13:15 PM: Mr. Joseph, I don't quite know what your particular problems are involving your aunt are, but I just wanted to say that while it is legal to shoot someone who is making a direct threat on your life, you will almost certianly lose in a lawsuit if your agressor lives to tell about her experience. I don't mean to pry into your personal life, but someone had mentioned moving into a hotel on the other side of town for a week, that wouldn't be a bad idea. It would be better to spend a few hundred on a hotel for a while, then to lose everything in a lawsuit. I know some people who have had similar trouble and all I can say is just be safe... put yourself away from the situation.
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Post by: Mr. Joseph on February 02, 2004, 08:15:10 AM: This problem started a few months or more ago, and will go on forever. We do live within 20 miles of her house now though. Once we get to phoenix its no problem. Im not worried about it, with the legal trouble shes allready in and the visits that the cops paid to her and her husband, if I see her walking up to my house from the drive, if there is anything in her hand, shes gonna get shot, Id prefer to start with a non lethal round. CASE CLOSED. For everyones information, are they legal? yes Can you mail order them online, yes? They run 25 to 30 plus 5 shipping for 5 rounds.
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Post by: Harley on February 02, 2004, 08:24:04 AM: Has your dad filed a restraining order? If so they police can arrest her anytime she comes on your dads property. FYI, you're asking for trouble using those NON lethal rounds. If you shoot someone with them be prepared to get sued. Ask any cop and they'll tell you, better to put them down instead of wounding them so they can't sue the pants off you.
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Post by: Paco on February 02, 2004, 11:54:23 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 Has your dad filed a restraining order? If so they police can arrest her anytime she comes on your dads property. FYI, you're asking for trouble using those NON lethal rounds. If you shoot someone with them be prepared to get sued. Ask any cop and they'll tell you, better to put them down instead of wounding them so they can't sue the pants off you.
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The above advice is worth its weight in gold.
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Post by: leakingpen on February 02, 2004, 03:27:27 PM: the flechettes aren't nearly as lethal at range. Higher delta v from air drag. And as to the situation, my suggestion were an additional. In terms of the shotgun, if your going to have it, he should be prepared to drop her permanently with the first shot if need be.
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Post by: Mr. Joseph on February 02, 2004, 03:37:23 PM: I agree that he should get a restraining order, but for very good, private reasons that he won't even discuss with me, he decided against it. As for any, meaning all, cops saying that it would be better to kill another human being rather than crack a rib, puncture a lung, and possibly more leaving them in the ICU, if I ever met that cop, there would be a heated debate. I know that you guys might know a little more about "Appendix A, Section 7" type stuff, but surely, I would not have the right to pull the trigger, unless use of a firearm was absolutely neccesary. You are trying to say that if I shot and killed her, for certain in self defense, all that would happen is tax payers would have to pay for the clean-up. Yet, if in the same situation, at the same moment in time, I pulled that same trigger and disabled her with a bean bag, or rubber bullet, I would get sued for everything I have. Two possible trials there, a murder/assault charge by the peoples' prosecutor, and a private trial where I would get sued for damages for either murder or assault. If I killed her and was found innocent on grounds of self defense, the second case wouldn't even get to trial. If I assaulted her with a bean bag round in the same situation, and not charged for it, on grounds of self defense, the second case would not get to trial. Im not positive, but in a situation where the intended victim kills their would be attacker in self defense, actually, I am sure, the would be attacker will be charged for attempting murder, or assault. The intended victim simply got lucky and saved his/her own life.

Also keep in mind the right to trial by jury, where you and I have to sit and deliberate the innocent until proven guilty. Can you honestly tell yourself that there won't be at least one person like me on the jury with you. How can you not see that under the said circumstances, the self defending victim saved the life of the crazy attacker by first shooting a "less-lethal" round, disabling, not killing the person.

Lastly, my TV is really big, so bring alot of guys and a big truck. Sell the TV, then pay someone to pick up the rest of my **** and empty my bank accounts, Im not going to take another human life unless there is no other option, especially just so that I can keep my TV and my Tahoe.
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Post by: Harley on February 02, 2004, 04:01:43 PM: Tell that to the jury that sat on the the case where the old lady spilled her McDonald's coffee in her lap and won a million dollars. Ever hear about the people that break into homes and get hurt and then sue the home owners, like the idiot that locked himself in the owners garage and only had dog food and warm soda to live on for a few days because the owner was out of town? He sued the home owner and won. If you really feel that you have a chance at a fair trial then go for it. As for me, I won't take that chance. If I feel my life is in danger, I'll get the restraining order and be prepared to take proper action. We live in a screwed up society Joseph. Think about it.
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Post by: Mr. Joseph on February 02, 2004, 05:21:53 PM: Yea, we do live with some screwed up individuals. None of those cases involved assault, especially one where murder was intended. Don't you think that those cases are completely different from one where an individual means to hurt or kill another. Have you ever even heard of someone trying to sue another in a similar situation? I can't even begin to see a convicted murderer, or actually it would be someone who attempted murder, trying to sue the intended victim for injuring them when defending their own life.

Mr. Joseph
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Post by: Screwloose on February 04, 2004, 09:48:10 AM: Stuff like that does happen. I think they have changed the laws some now, so that if you are actually courned to standard. but yeah, i would have put her partly at fault, and wouldnt have paid her as much as they did.

now, back on topic, hows the situation going?
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You make me laugh and I know we're somewhat off topic, but how can you justify giving someone money for doing something stupid? Common sense dictates that you do not put hot liquids between your legs or anywhere close to where you could possibly get burned by it. How many of you that drink coffee blow on it before taking a sip? I'll bet each and everyone of you do. So if it's going to be too hot to take a drink from, what would make you think it would be any cooler on your skin. God... if they could only teach common sense to people this world would be such a better place!
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Post by: Screwloose on February 02, 2004, 07:57:31 PM: I'm not a lawyer, and that was Cali not here. I doubt there would be as much debate over the act of self defense in this state as over there.

Here I know the basic rule is, a reasonable person must percieve there was an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death to oneself or another. Hence someone holding a gun threatening your life is grounds for you to defend yourself. I.E. shoot them. Just don't shoot them in the back running away.
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Post by: leakingpen on February 03, 2004, 08:34:31 AM: well now, hold on, the coffee was served 35 degrees above the temperature allowed by law, and that particular mcdonalds KNEW their coffee pot was brewing too hot. So that's not a fair one. But then, there was the burglar that cut himself on the glass of the window hed broken, sued, and won. so there are some good examples. and i agree with your stance of not being willing to take a life like that. but with a nonlethal round, you are setting yourself up for a situation where you may be unable to pull the trigger that second time, and thus losing YOUR life. (or rather, your father is setting himself up to lose HIS life)
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Post by: azsarge on February 03, 2004, 06:22:10 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen
 well now, hold on, the coffee was served 35 degrees above the temperature allowed by law, and that particular mcdonalds KNEW their coffee pot was brewing too hot. So that's not a fair one. But then, there was the burglar that cut himself on the glass of the window hed broken, sued, and won. so there are some good examples. and i agree with your stance of not being willing to take a life like that. but with a nonlethal round, you are setting yourself up for a situation where you may be unable to pull the trigger that second time, and thus losing YOUR life. (or rather, your father is setting himself up to lose HIS life)

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What temperature is that? Coffee is best brewed at 190 degrees. Even if they had decreased the temperature by 10 (to 180), 35 over that would place it over the boiling point. I know this is picky, but I can't pass up a good argument![:P]

PS, I worked at Starbucks for a year, and we brewed ours at 190. Serving temp was in the range of 180-185.
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Post by: Harley on February 04, 2004, 06:26:10 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen
 well now, hold on, the coffee was served 35 degrees above the temperature allowed by law, and that particular mcdonalds KNEW their coffee pot was brewing too hot. So that's not a fair one. But then, there was the burglar that cut himself on the glass of the window hed broken, sued, and won. so there are some good examples. and i agree with your stance of not being willing to take a life like that. but with a nonlethal round, you are setting yourself up for a situation where you may be unable to pull the trigger that second time, and thus losing YOUR life. (or rather, your father is setting himself up to lose HIS life)

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Whether the coffee was too hot or not was not the issue. The issue should have been that the woman was TOO STUPID and put a hot cup of coffee between her legs while she was driving and it spilled. If I was on that jury I would have not given her a dime.
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Post by: Foxx on February 04, 2004, 08:38:11 AM: Maybe this is a stupid response but would it not be easier to use Tranquilizers, then you are garentted that she aint going anywere. it be like old school. just a thought.
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Post by: leakingpen on February 04, 2004, 08:40:29 AM: except that the introduction of a dissolved solvent (ie coffe) raises the boiling temperature. and brewing at pressure can create a condition known as superheated, where the water is higher than boiling temperature without boiling, even when pressure is returned to standard. but yeah, i would have put her partly at fault, and wouldnt have paid her as much as they did.

now, back on topic, hows the situation going?
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Post by: Harley on February 04, 2004, 09:48:10 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen
 except that the introduction of a dissolved solvent (ie coffe) raises the boiling temperature. and brewing at pressure can create a condition known as superheated, where the water is higher than boiling temperature without boiling, even when pressure is returned to standard. but yeah, i would have put her partly at fault, and wouldnt have paid her as much as they did.

now, back on topic, hows the situation going?
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You make me laugh and I know we're somewhat off topic, but how can you justify giving someone money for doing something stupid? Common sense dictates that you do not put hot liquids between your legs or anywhere close to where you could possibly get burned by it. How many of you that drink coffee blow on it before taking a sip? I'll bet each and everyone of you do. So if it's going to be too hot to take a drink from, what would make you think it would be any cooler on your skin. God... if they could only teach common sense to people this world would be such a better place!
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Post by: azsarge on February 04, 2004, 10:07:48 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen
 except that the introduction of a dissolved solvent (ie coffe) raises the boiling temperature. and brewing at pressure can create a condition known as superheated, where the water is higher than boiling temperature without boiling, even when pressure is returned to standard. but yeah, i would have put her partly at fault, and wouldnt have paid her as much as they did.

now, back on topic, hows the situation going?
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I'm not sure what kind of nuclear coffee pot YOU use, but most commercial brewers (like the FETCO used at Starbucks), and most likely the ones used at McDonalds, use a simple drip method. The water is heated in a boiler, then released through a spray head over an open filter full of grounds. About 5 degrees are lost when the hot water leaves the head, even though the unit is semi-sealed. So you see, even IF the water was above 212, it wouldn't have been by the time she got it.

And let me ask you something...Can you tell the difference between a 190 degree burn and a 212 degree burn? Even if it WAS hotter than it should have been, the few degree increase would not have increased pain of tissue damage by a notable ammount.

It's called common sense, and she didn't have any. It sickens me that such a lack of it was rewarded by the court!
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Post by: Screwloose on February 04, 2004, 01:13:23 PM: This is America guys, the country that makes Darwin roll in his grave. Here we reward stupidity with publicity and money. Anyone smart enough to survive on their own here is punished.
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Post by: Paco on February 04, 2004, 01:19:06 PM: Stella - the one who burned herself with the McDonald's coffee in 1992 - her lawsuit was the one that started the "I am not responsible for my own dumb actions or ignorance" types of lawsuits. She was originally awarded $2.9 MILLION for her dumb accident. More info is here:

http://www.stellaawards.com/stella.html (http://www.stellaawards.com/stella.html)

It's all just a measure of how <s>liberal(?)</s> and degraded our society has become.
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Post by: leakingpen on February 04, 2004, 02:06:39 PM: well, as some of the burns were 3rd degree, i would say that thats an excessive heat. i agree that they paid her WAY too much, and she shouldnt have put the coffee between her lap, but law states that coffee is supposed to be served cool enough to drink instantly. it wasnt. therefore, mcdonalds was also at fault. especially considereing it was the third recorded instance of someone being burnt on the coffee at that particular franchise.
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Post by: Paco on February 04, 2004, 02:14:27 PM: Can you point me to the law that states "coffee is supposed to be served cool enough to drink instantly"? It also would have to be a PRE 1992 law, as I am sure it has been amended or changed since as a result of the Stella incident. Also, realize that "cool enough to drink instantly" is a VERY subjective term. Some people will REQUIRE that their coffee be scalding hot when served, or will complain. However, here's the kicker: Coffee is supposed to be served in the range of 185 degrees! The National Coffee Association recommends coffee be brewed at "between 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction" and drunk "immediately". If not drunk immediately, it should be "maintained at 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit". (Source: NCAUSA: http://www.ncausa.org/public/pages/index.cfm?pageid=71 (http://www.ncausa.org/public/pages/index.cfm?pageid=71)) Exactly what, then, did McDonald's do wrong? Did it exhibit "willful, wanton, reckless or malicious conduct" -- the standard for awarding punitive damages in New Mexico for awarding punitive damages?

The 'Court of Public Opinion' has also issued its verdict: Stella has become an American icon. Rightly or wrongly, she is a symbol of the American Tort system gone wrong, and most have heard of her case -- and have an opinion on it. For more than 10 years, the term "Stella Award" has been used to refer to any lawsuit that sounds outrageous.
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Post by: Paco on February 04, 2004, 02:22:23 PM: Here are some "great" lawsuits that are classified as having won "Stella Awards" (yes, they are all 100% verifiably true):

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
#7: Shawn Perkins of Laurel, Ind. Perkins was hit by lightning in the
parking lot Paramount's Kings Island amusement park in Mason, Ohio. A
classic "act of God", right? No, says Perkins' lawyer. "That would be
a lot of people's knee-jerk reaction in these types of situations."
The lawyer has filed suit against the amusement park asking
unspecified damages, arguing the park should have "warned" people not
to be outside during a thunderstorm.

#6: Caesar Barber, 56, of New York City. Barber, who is 5-foot-10 and 270
pounds, says he is obese, diabetic, and suffers from heart disease
because fast food restaurants forced him to eat their fatty food four
to five times per week. He filed suit against McDonald's, Burger King,
Wendy's and KFC, who "profited enormously" and asked for unspecified
damages because the eateries didn't warn him that junk food isn't good
for him. The judge threw the case out twice, and barred it from being
filed a third time. Is that the end of such McCases? No way: lawyers
will just find another plaintiff and start over, legal scholars say.

#5: Cole Bartiromo, 18, of Mission Viejo, Calif. After making over $1
million in the stock market, the feds made Bartiromo pay it all back:
he gained his profits, they said, using fraud. Bartiromo played
baseball at school, but after his fraud case broke he was no longer
allowed to participate in extracurricular sports. Bartiromo clearly
learned a lot while sitting in federal court: he wrote and filed his
own lawsuit against his high school, reasoning that he had planned on
a pro baseball career but, because he was kicked off the school's
team, pro scouts wouldn't be able to discover him. His suit demands
the school reimburse him for the great salary he would have made in
the majors, which he figures is $50 million.

#4: Priest David Hanser, 70. Hanser was one of the first Catholic priests
to be caught up in the sex abuse scandal. In 1990, he settled a suit
filed by one of his victims for $65,000. In the settlement, Hanser
agreed not to work with children anymore, but the victim learned that
Hanser was ignoring that part of the agreement. The victim appealed to
the church, asking it to stop Hanser from working near children, but
the church would not intervene. "It's up to the church to decide where
he works," argued the priest's lawyer. When the outraged victim went
to the press to warn the public that a pedo priest was near children,
Hanser sued him for the same $65,000 because he violated his own part
of the deal -- to keep the settlement secret. The message is clear:
shut up about outrageous abuse, or we'll sue you for catching us.

#3: Wanda Hudson, 44, of Mobile, Ala. After Hudson lost her home to
foreclosure, she moved her belongings to a storage unit. She says she
was inside her unit one night "looking for some papers" when the
storage yard manager found the door to her unit ajar -- and locked it.
She denies that she was sleeping inside, but incredibly did not call
for help or bang on the door to be let out! She was not found for 63
days and barely survived; the formerly "plump" 150-pound woman lived
on food she just happened to have in the unit, and was a mere 83
pounds when she was found. She sued the storage yard for $10 million
claiming negligence. Even though the jury was not allowed to learn
that Hudson had previously diagnosed mental problems, it found Hudson
was nearly 100 percent responsible for her own predicament -- but
still awarded her $100,000.

#2: Doug Baker, 45, of Portland, Ore. Baker says God "steered" him to a
stray dog. He admits "People thought I was crazy" to spend $4,000 in
vet bills to bring the injured mutt back to health, but hey, it was
God's dog! But $4,000 was nothing: he couldn't even take his
girlfriend out to dinner without getting a dog-sitter to watch him.
When the skittish dog escaped the sitter, Baker didn't just put an ad
in the paper, he bought display ads so he could include a photo. His
business collapsed since he devoted full time to the search for the
dog. He didn't propose to his girlfriend because he wanted the dog to
deliver the ring to her. He hired four "animal psychics" to give him
clues to the animal's whereabouts, and hired a witch to cast spells.
He even spread his own urine around to "mark his territory" to try to
lure the dog home! And, he said, he cried every day. Two months in to
the search, he went looking for the dog where it got lost -- and
quickly found it. His first task: he put a collar on the mutt. (He
hadn't done that before for a dog that was so "valuable"?!) After
finding the dog, he sued the dog sitter, demanding $20,000 for the
cost of his search, $30,000 for the income he lost by letting his
business collapse, $10,000 for "the temporary loss of the special
value" of the dog, and $100,000 in "emotional damages" -- $160,000
total. God has not been named as a defendant.

AND THE WINNER of the 2003 True Stella Awards: The City of Madera, Calif.
Madera police officer Marcy Noriega had the suspect from a minor
disturbance handcuffed in the back of her patrol car. When the suspect
started to kick at the car's windows, Officer Noriega decided to
subdue him with her Taser. Incredibly, instead of pulling her stun gun
from her belt, she pulled her service sidearm and shot the man in the
chest, killing him instantly. The city, however, says the killing is
not the officer's fault; it argues that "any reasonable police
officer" could "mistakenly draw and fire a handgun instead of the
Taser device" and has filed suit against Taser, arguing the company
should pay for any award from the wrongful death lawsuit the man's
family has filed. What a slur against every professionally trained
police officer who knows the difference between a real gun and a stun
gun! And what a cowardly attempt to escape responsibility for the
actions of its own under-trained officer.
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Post by: Screwloose on February 04, 2004, 03:52:14 PM: My friend was saying the real reason that Stella won the Law Suit was not just because the Coffee was serverd too hot, or that the machine was malfunctioning. From what he was saying, at that time the company was setting the coffee pots too hot on purpose to leach more out of the ground beans. I'm no coffee expert here but it sounded like a reasonable explination. They were found negligent for this because it was being done to gain profit from it. Not just because they were aware of the "malfunction" and took no action to fix it.

Or so I was told. . .

And not to change the subject, but this is the Best Thread Hijacking ever!
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Post by: leakingpen on February 04, 2004, 03:54:09 PM: wow, they're actually suggesting serving at 185? they must be looking for a lawsuit themselves.
http://www.tap-water-burn.com/ (http://www.tap-water-burn.com/)
http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/pa/pa_hotwatr_hhg.htm (http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/pa/pa_hotwatr_hhg.htm)

and a little more on teh case
http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm (http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm)
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Post by: Raith on February 04, 2004, 04:46:43 PM: Save us from the terrible hot water!

Soon there will be a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Hot Coffee (BATFHC)...
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Post by: Paco on February 04, 2004, 05:35:23 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raith
 Save us from the terrible hot water!

Soon there will be a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Hot Coffee (BATFHC)...
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ROFL! As sad as it is, you're not far off. Some people (Stella?) just don't understand the term "personal responsibility". There are WAAAAAY too many people who look to blame anything and everything (bad) that happens to them on anything or anyone but themselves. [V]
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Post by: leakingpen on February 06, 2004, 10:17:42 AM: nicely said raith! and paco, in general i agree with you, but there are some instances where blame does go elsewhere. i just feel that stella is one of the few that does.
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Post by: azsarge on February 06, 2004, 12:55:19 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen
 nicely said raith! and paco, in general i agree with you, but there are some instances where blame does go elsewhere. i just feel that stella is one of the few that does.
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Coffee is hot! Maybe she should have ordered a Coke. Either way, Stella got her groove back![:P]
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Post by: Pancho on February 06, 2004, 04:17:43 PM: With $2.9 million, thats one heck of a 'groove'!
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Post by: Paco on February 06, 2004, 04:26:27 PM: Yep. In all fairness (not in this case though!) a judge did overturn the $2.9 million and reduced it quite a bit. As I understand it, McDonald's then settled with her for an undisclosed sum. Originally, all she wanted was $20K for the injuries and expenses, but McDonald's refused, so it went to court where she was given the $2.9M.
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Post by: Pancho on February 06, 2004, 05:03:46 PM: Regardless of the amount, still a heck of a deal.
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Post by: Trashcan on February 06, 2004, 06:54:30 PM: That has to be the fastest way to become a multi-millionaire... brb while I go spill some coffee on my crotch...
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Post by: Pancho on February 06, 2004, 07:01:52 PM: I'd spill coffee on myself for a couple hundred bucks....but hey, I'm cheap!
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Post by: azsarge on February 06, 2004, 07:38:27 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Trashcan
 That has to be the fastest way to become a multi-millionaire... brb while I go spill some coffee on my crotch...
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Darwin sez..."thumbs up, fellas!"
Title: Non Lethal 12 Gauge Shells
Post by: Mr. Joseph on January 27, 2004, 07:28:22 PM: I've been looking around on the internet for some non lethal shotgun shells, ie bean bags, or rubber bullets. Which round would be better for close range, and stay nonlethal? Where can I get some?

Joey