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Offline HavHav

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« on: January 14, 2004, 03:35:27 PM »
You can see the full footage, as well as more at http://www.militaryvideos.net You might want to warn people that a guy is ripped apart by the cannon. My favorite is the AC130 Thermal Cam...Terrorists go bye bye!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by HavHav »

Offline leakingpen

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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2004, 03:40:19 PM »
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/a ... 40109.html

Rules of Engagement
Videotape Shows U.S. Helicopter Crew Firing on Suspected Iraqi Insurgents
By Martha Raddatz
ABCNEWS.com

Jan. 9— Graphic video footage from the gun camera of a U.S. Apache helicopter provides a window into the rules of engagement that often determine life and death in Iraq.

The video, obtained by ABCNEWS, shows grainy images of three Iraqis on the ground handling a long cylindrical object that the helicopter pilots believe is a weapon.
The pilots, from the Army's 4th Infantry Division, ask their commanders for permission to engage, then take the three men out one by one, using the Apache's devastating 30 mm cannons.

Nighttime Scene

The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

"Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

"I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

The pilots wait as a tractor arrives on the scene, near the spot where the pickup driver dropped the object. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver.

Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men.

When he rolls out from under the truck, one of the pilots says, "He's wounded."

The other pilot says, "Hit him," and the Apache opens fire again, killing the man.

The Apache fires nearly 100 30 mm cannon rounds in all.


Engagement Called Justified

A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops.

Keane agreed. "Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that," he said.

Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. "They're not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see."

As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by leakingpen »

Offline leakingpen

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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2004, 03:44:15 PM »
that was a 30 mm cannon?  a round a little over an inch in size did that?  is it an explosive round?  does anyone know?

and...  what do you all feel on the apropriatness of firing on the wounded combatant?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by leakingpen »

Offline Harley

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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2004, 04:18:53 PM »
Sweet!  Those 30mm rounds are depleted uranium.  They just look explosive due to impacting the ground and kicking up all the dirt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline Me-Ushi_Kami

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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2004, 05:02:31 PM »
Nice video, Thanks for the site havhav I will probably end up watchin all of those too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Me-Ushi_Kami »
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Offline leakingpen

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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2004, 05:13:55 PM »
no, i was wondering due to the effect on the vehicles.  du, that makes sense, du burns on impact.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by leakingpen »

Offline azsarge

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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2004, 06:37:16 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by leakingpen</i>
<br />no, i was wondering due to the effect on the vehicles.  du, that makes sense, du burns on impact.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Depending on the material being impacted.  The friction of DU rounds punching through metal (read Armor) usually causes a bit of heat[}:)].

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by leakingpen</i>
<br />
and...  what do you all feel on the apropriatness of firing on the wounded combatant?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

We are all now more of a pansy for having read your post.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by azsarge »

Offline Harley

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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2004, 07:18:52 PM »
He was moving pretty good, so he couldn't have been hurt too badly and thus he was still a threat.  His mistake for not staying hidden under the truck like he was.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
\"Just because you\'re paranoid, doesn\'t mean they\'re not out to get you!\"

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Offline Paco

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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2004, 07:29:20 PM »
It actually looked like he was missing a leg...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Paco »

Offline Harley

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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2004, 07:40:16 PM »
I didn't see that, I'll have to watch it again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
\"Just because you\'re paranoid, doesn\'t mean they\'re not out to get you!\"

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Offline HavHav

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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2004, 07:51:20 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by leakingpen</i>
<br />
and...  what do you all feel on the apropriatness of firing on the wounded combatant?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


No offense, but what the hell were they supposed to do? Land the helicopter and preform CPR? The guy shouldnt have been there in the first place. If you have the choice to live your life normally, or go chill in an alley behind the crackhouse in the middle of 'the hood', dont be supprised if you get shot. It was obvious that they were a threat. [Ditching weapons and what looked like a very large AT or AA launcer] Even though they wernt shooting anyone, they were a threat. If you were in the middle of Afghanistan, and saw some Taliban guys down the road loading AK's, RPGs, and putting the finishing touches on a few heavy machine guns, would you just sit there and wait until they decide its a good time to shoot you?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Harley</i>
<br />I didn't see that, I'll have to watch it again.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Watch it 2 more times and you will see more interesting things. The First, watch the right of your screen (the man standing there) when the Apache first opens fire. It looks like he either got some dirt kicked up at him, or some shrapnel to his abdomen. (This same guy later gets shot as he peeks around the truck). The second time, watch the smoke to the left of the person getting shot (the first time), and you will see a leg fly off.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by HavHav »

Offline azsarge

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« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2004, 01:28:33 AM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by HavHav</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by leakingpen</i>
<br />
and...  what do you all feel on the apropriatness of firing on the wounded combatant?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


No offense, but what the hell were they supposed to do? Land the helicopter and preform CPR? The guy shouldnt have been there in the first place. If you have the choice to live your life normally, or go chill in an alley behind the crackhouse in the middle of 'the hood', dont be supprised if you get shot. It was obvious that they were a threat. [Ditching weapons and what looked like a very large AT or AA launcer] Even though they wernt shooting anyone, they were a threat. If you were in the middle of Afghanistan, and saw some Taliban guys down the road loading AK's, RPGs, and putting the finishing touches on a few heavy machine guns, would you just sit there and wait until they decide its a good time to shoot you?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

He would have ran off by then, leaving a trail of urine in the desert sand.

The bottom line, leakingpen, is that those guys exist so the nation I love and the freedoms I can take for granted aren't dependent on people like you to defend them.  And yes, I am judging you by what you have said thus far.  It is all I know of you, it's not personal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by azsarge »

Offline Me-Ushi_Kami

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« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2004, 03:09:00 AM »
Thats one thing i never understood about war. The fact that people deam diffirent ways of killing a human to be inhuman or whatever. For example last i checked you cant shoot a person with a M82-A1.. ok your going to kill him ether way.. one just takes less time, less bullets, and can be done at a greater distance.

People often say how inhuman it is to fire on someone that isnt firing apon you first. For example up above when leakingpen asked how do we feel about that. I feel fine about it and if i was the pilot i wouldnt give it a second thought. Hell i would have sent a few more down just to make sure. Your in it to take out your targets .. once they are identified you should be able to use what you have at your dispence to destory it and not have to stop half way cause on the first shot you wounded it.

It reminds me of times where you see a group of people attack another group of people and at the end they try to save the people they just injured becuase they mortaly wounded them but didnt kill them.

Use DU rounds, use bombs, use what ever.. just get the job done!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Me-Ushi_Kami »
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Offline leakingpen

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« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2004, 04:56:34 AM »
no, i meant as in since the way he was moving he looked pretty wounded, as he was under a truck that had gone BOOM, should they have blown just the other truck to prevent him from escaping, kept guns on him, called in ground troops, and tried to capture him. for interrogation. if he managed to get up and try to run, THEN smoke him.  and harley, the truck was burning.  would YOU have stayed hidden under flaming wreckage?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by leakingpen »

Offline Me-Ushi_Kami

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« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2004, 05:31:20 AM »
Well people do often do stupid things when paniced any how so i doubt he gave it to much thought. You have a choice of 30mm gun or a truck that could explode in any minute.

Ok so my example using leakingpen is a little off but for sake of argument it will work. As for capturing him.. i would just have killed him. Considering the time, money, and waste of man power.. i wouldnt go get him. He would probably not say much and rot in some prison somewhere. IMO
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Me-Ushi_Kami »
<b>\"On a long enough time line the survial rate of everything is 0\"
\"Posting at the speed of spam\" ~me</b>