Author Topic: What's up with that?  (Read 2693 times)

Offline Whiskey11

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2010, 05:43:27 PM »
Quote from: "busta_cap"
Whiskey, what are your thoughts about the Newest Systema complete gearbox's. I got mine the other day to put in my new AEG and tested compression and such and it seems to be very well built, I tore it down to test shimming and such and again, very well done. For reference it's the M170 version, which is about 550fps.

I avoid Systema complete gearboxes like the plague, the only things of theirs I recommend are their gears if you are in a pinch and the Magnum Motor if you have the knowhow and capability to remove pinion gear and insulate the motor so it doesnt short out.  The last thing I recommend from them is their hop up buckings.

I'm curious as to which gearbox you are refering to?  Their Revolution gearbox?  If so, I'd remain ever vigilant of that gearbox, regular maintenance and lubrication.  My fears are that the electronics are prone to damage from humidity (not an issue for Zonies), gear failure, Piston Failure and the front of the gearbox failing.  Systema still has not fixed the issue with the V2 gearbox in any of their guns I've seen and in some cases made it worse.  I truely hope it works out well for you, but my experience with Systema complete gearboxes has been bad.  Trigger posts snapping, pistons that are too weak to pull M120's, and just in general lack of care for their product.  The Systema Magnum is a very powerfull motor, but even it has serious failing points (shorting across the aluminum endbell and the ultra soft pinion gear to name two).  

In general though, I avoid Systema like the plague, there are better parts for the same price or cheaper, but I really do hope yours works out and that they are turning around their product line up.

Axis of Oil, you really didnt need most of those upgrades for the Guarder SP130.  The nice thing about Guarder springs is they generally chrono a full spring level higher when compared to normal M series springs, their SP120 sits more in line with an M130 by another manufacturer than it does the M120 crowd, and so on and so forth, but the other nice thing is that their springs tend to be easier to pull back then other springs.  I run a Guarder SP130 in my G&G M14 Veteran now, chronos at 450 w/ .20's and runs on basically stock gearbox parts sans the motor which is an Element Ultra Torque Up, which I DONT recommend to anyone.

The KA 7mm bearings broke?  Remind me to never use them.  7mm Bearings can generally handle an M150 spring without any issues.  Provided they are made correctly.  Also, what MOSFET's have you had bad luck with?  I hope not Extreme-Fire MOSFETs as Terry at EF does an amazing job taking care of his customers.  I've used his MOSFET's (SW-AB Long through SW-Evolution) and never had any issues that were caused by his product.  

Piston teeth failure is caused by a failing piston.  Generally the only way for that to happen is if the last tooth is pushing up into the piston body when the sector gear rotates around.  The result is releasing the Piston early which then causes the sector gear to tear out the other teeth.  I have also found that the Modify Pistons do not mesh well with non modify gears.  You may wish to invest in a different piston.  Generally a more expensive piston will last longer than a cheaper one, however the Azimuth Piston on ASGI (clear blueish color) is supposed to be an amazing performer.  Normally I go with the Prometheus Hard, when set up correctly it has been known to last a very very long time.  Mine went 30,000 rounds without AoE adjustment on a Guarder SP150 set up without showing any signs of wear at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline axisofoil

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2010, 07:31:24 PM »
Quote from: "busta_cap"

Whiskey, what are your thoughts about the Newest Systema complete gearbox's. I got mine the other day to put in my new AEG and tested compression and such and it seems to be very well built, I tore it down to test shimming and such and again, very well done. For reference it's the M170 version, which is about 550fps.

Glad to hear that they're nice. That may be my next choice when mine grenades (more than likely what's going to happen after a couple months with the next spring up in it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline busta_cap

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2010, 08:11:03 PM »
Quote from: "Whiskey11"
Quote from: "busta_cap"
Whiskey, what are your thoughts about the Newest Systema complete gearbox's. I got mine the other day to put in my new AEG and tested compression and such and it seems to be very well built, I tore it down to test shimming and such and again, very well done. For reference it's the M170 version, which is about 550fps.

I avoid Systema complete gearboxes like the plague, the only things of theirs I recommend are their gears if you are in a pinch and the Magnum Motor if you have the knowhow and capability to remove pinion gear and insulate the motor so it doesnt short out.  The last thing I recommend from them is their hop up buckings.

I'm curious as to which gearbox you are refering to?  Their Revolution gearbox?  If so, I'd remain ever vigilant of that gearbox, regular maintenance and lubrication.  My fears are that the electronics are prone to damage from humidity (not an issue for Zonies), gear failure, Piston Failure and the front of the gearbox failing.  Systema still has not fixed the issue with the V2 gearbox in any of their guns I've seen and in some cases made it worse.  I truely hope it works out well for you, but my experience with Systema complete gearboxes has been bad.  Trigger posts snapping, pistons that are too weak to pull M120's, and just in general lack of care for their product.  The Systema Magnum is a very powerfull motor, but even it has serious failing points (shorting across the aluminum endbell and the ultra soft pinion gear to name two).  

In general though, I avoid Systema like the plague, there are better parts for the same price or cheaper, but I really do hope yours works out and that they are turning around their product line up.

I will check later, I don't know exactly, When I asked about them from a rep they offered to send one to me for T&E, and I wasn't about to pass up a free gearbox..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whiskey11

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2010, 08:21:01 PM »
I wouldnt pass up a free Gearbox either lol :)  Let us know how it is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline axisofoil

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2010, 11:38:06 PM »
Quote from: "Whiskey11"

Axis of Oil, you really didnt need most of those upgrades for the Guarder SP130.  

The KA 7mm bearings broke?  Remind me to never use them.  7mm Bearings can generally handle an M150 spring without any issues.  Provided they are made correctly.  Also, what MOSFET's have you had bad luck with?  I hope not Extreme-Fire MOSFETs as Terry at EF does an amazing job taking care of his customers.  I've used his MOSFET's (SW-AB Long through SW-Evolution) and never had any issues that were caused by his product.  
.

Most of those aren't upgrades. Most of them are the parts that were stock with my gun. :D

The bearing failure was more likely because of an issue with the selector plate sitting over the one that failed and overheating it. I was firing full-auto for extended periods. But yeah, they were replaced with more king arms bearings and i haven't had a problem since... bushings to go in tomorrow.
The only parts I actually bought for the gun are: spring bearing guide, new bearings after one failed, polycarb piston (it's working like a champ, no matter what you say, it works for me), and the duracon head, and batteries/wires. I'm sure you can agree that those ARE necessary. lol.

And they'll be nice to have when I step it up to a sp150 or sp160 when it starts to warm up some. I don't like to hurt people too much when it's cold... bbs just hurt soo much more when there's snow on the ground.

The mosfets I had problems with I made... but the whole part where they lit on fire thing kinda scared me. It's my fault, not the idea's. lol.



And... How do I get in on free gearboxes?? lol.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Ghillieman

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 12:36:23 AM »
So here is the setup I was planning on running
*Guarder SP150 spring
*Bravo Aluminum cylinder head http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=6244
*Bravo Aluminum piston head http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=6240
*Modify nozzle http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=2272
*Systema energy super torque up ratio gears http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=6127
*Since I was advized against an aluminum pistion please recommend one
*I was also thinking of a bore up kit rather than buying everything seperate
*I have a CA reinfroced gearbox already, only problem is this is a 6mm gearbox with bushings and no bearings. Is it even worth doing all these upgrades if all I have is a 6mm gearbox?

So what I'm looking for here is some insight into my list. Good combination or not so good, just let me know. If there is something better out there I'd like to know. Also lets try and keep the technical mumbo jumbo to a minimun until I can get up to speed on the basics of these components and modifying them. I'm new to the do-it-yourself upgrade but not to airsoft. I'm simply seeking wisdom from those who have it. This upgrade will be done on a CA G3 if you wanted to know.

Thanks for the help
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline axisofoil

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2010, 12:48:08 AM »
Quote from: "Ghillieman"
So here is the setup I was planning on running
*Guarder SP150 spring
*Bravo Aluminum cylinder head http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=6244
*Bravo Aluminum piston head http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=6240
*Modify nozzle http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=2272
*Systema energy super torque up ratio gears http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=6127
*Since I was advized against an aluminum pistion please recommend one
*I was also thinking of a bore up kit rather than buying everything seperate
*I have a CA reinfroced gearbox already, only problem is this is a 6mm gearbox with bushings and no bearings. Is it even worth doing all these upgrades if all I have is a 6mm gearbox?

So what I'm looking for here is some insight into my list. Good combination or not so good, just let me know. If there is something better out there I'd like to know. Also lets try and keep the technical mumbo jumbo to a minimun until I can get up to speed on the basics of these components and modifying them. I'm new to the do-it-yourself upgrade but not to airsoft. I'm simply seeking wisdom from those who have it. This upgrade will be done on a CA G3 if you wanted to know.

Thanks for the help


No need for an aluminum piston head either. Same reasons as the piston not being aluminum.
The airsoft GI Azimuth is supposed to be fine up to a SP160 according to their techs when I emailed them regarding the piston, so I'd recommend that instead (good news, it's still cheap). A polycarb or duracon piston head will be fine... although I would say a "silent" piston head might be better, if for nothing else than reducing stress on the gearbox. and no, they don't really quiet the gun down very much.

I have a feeling you've watched the airsoft gi "Upgrading for 500fps" video... most of what they say is good... just an aluminum piston isn't worth it. lol.

I haven't been able to use any bravo parts yet, so IDK if they're any good at all... and you shouldn't need a super torque up gearset unless you plan on using an 8.4v battery or a stock-type motor, a good standard ratio or torque up (not super) shouldn't have a problem with that even on a decent motor/battery setup. I'm not sure how strong that gearbox is... maybe Whiskey knows... but metal bushings at 6mm will be better than metal bearings at 6mm for a SP150.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whiskey11

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2010, 06:44:45 AM »
Quote from: "Ghillieman"
So here is the setup I was planning on running
*Guarder SP150 spring
*Bravo Aluminum cylinder head http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=6244
*Bravo Aluminum piston head http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=6240
*Modify nozzle http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=2272
*Systema energy super torque up ratio gears http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?products_id=6127
*Since I was advized against an aluminum pistion please recommend one
*I was also thinking of a bore up kit rather than buying everything seperate
*I have a CA reinfroced gearbox already, only problem is this is a 6mm gearbox with bushings and no bearings. Is it even worth doing all these upgrades if all I have is a 6mm gearbox?


-Guarder SP150 will put you above 500 FPS in the 550 FPS range if compression is done correctly.  I'm going to advise against this high on any "store bought" V2 gearbox, especially CA's as it will fail.  The only ways I know of to fix this issue is Sorbothane spacer on the piston head OR on the cylinder head, and rounding the cylinder window's corners which I believe CA already does.  I'll talk more on Sorbo later
-The Bravo Aluminum Cylinder head is interesting, but the concept is not a good one.  If the holes that are cut for the cylinder head to sit in when put in the gearbox (the two holes on the side) are not more of cylinders then round holes then the bumper on the front may never get to be used.  It also does not necessarily reduce issues with cracking the front of the gearbox.  If there are cheaper alternatives then use that instead.
-This is fine, but keep in mind that aluminum piston and piston heads do increase stress on the front of the gearbox, a V2 gearbox will fail without the Sorbo, and the sorbo helps reduce some of those stresses, but it's not a guarentee.
-Modify Nozzle works fine for me
-Systema Energy gears make me cringe, your money, I dont recommend Systema gears unless money is soo tight you cant afford other gearsets.  Prometheus gears, RiotSC's gears and Guarder gears are all I recommend.  If you have to buy Systema gears, go for the regular full on Torque gears, I worry that the Energy set may not be up to the task of pulling the SP150 spring
-Prometheus Hard Piston or the Azimuth Piston.  When used in conjunction with sorbo, remove second tooth and possibly part of the third.
-Bore up kit would be a waste of money
-6mm bushings would be muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch better than 6mm bearings.  These are fine.  Solid bushings give you peace of mind as it's very difficult to break bushings, HOWEVER I would replace the CA 6mm bushings.  I've had several stock CA's come back with bushings that have been ovaled out...

-Sorbothane.  You need to get some of this stuff.  Tirador on Airsoft Mechanics (Creater of Airsoft Research Syndicate) or go to the ARS webpage and buy some.  I advise against buying his cylinder heads with the sorbo installed as I hear bad reports of them not sealing up to well, but purchasing his self make kits is a good idea.  You glue (Super glue, like GOOD super glue) the blue down to either the Cylinder head (post removal of the regular rubber buffer) and then glue the black one on top of it, cut a hole in it first yadi yadi yah, or you can glue it to the piston head, blue then black (So the black is always on the top relative to the force of impact).  What sorbo does is when the spring hits home it compresses and transfers the energy sideways so the majority of the impact stress is reduced It also serves the dual purposes of adjusting the AoE (discussed on the previous page) and quieteting the impact of the piston hitting the cylinder.  The kits are relativly cheap, this is a MUST.

I also recommend a good motor, the CA stock motor is not, and I definetly recommend a MOSFET trigger system.  Either get one of the full on computer ones permanetly locked in semi auto (as you wont be able to have full auto) or get an Active braking MOSFET and modify the fire selector.  Either way, a MOSFETs work by redirecting the battery's power straight to the motor.  When you pull the trigger, a small voltage crosses the MOSFET and returns onto the "gate" pin.  When the MOSFET gets that voltage it dumps the rest of the voltage straight to the motor.  This reduces trigger contact wear drastically.  When you get an Active Braking MOSFET they add a second MOSFET to the system that detects when the trigger contacts have been taken off, and then it basically "shorts" the motor causing it to stop VERY QUICKLY.  Usually it stops it right before it contacts the piston again.  This is essential for FPS consistency which is cruicial for accurate fire.
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Offline axisofoil

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2010, 06:34:13 PM »
Quote from: "Whiskey11"



-Sorbothane.  You need to get some of this stuff.  Tirador on Airsoft Mechanics (Creater of Airsoft Research Syndicate) or go to the ARS webpage and buy some.  

Know of anywhere in the US or any other shops that I can order these from? $16 in shipping for just a little $9.90 pad doesn't sit right with me. lol.

airsoftparts.ca has them for 12 +8.90 in shipping. I think this may be canadian dollars... so probably just a tid bit less after the exchange rate.
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Offline Whiskey11

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2010, 07:10:10 PM »
You can make your own too... McMaster Carr has sheets of Sorbothane (you want 70 Durometer or higher) for relativly inexpensive.  You will need something to cut it with.

Otherwise, on AirsoftMechanics there is another person (UTC Pyro) who also sells kits in the US I believe.
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Offline axisofoil

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2010, 10:21:24 PM »
Quote from: "Whiskey11"
You can make your own too... McMaster Carr has sheets of Sorbothane (you want 70 Durometer or higher) for relativly inexpensive.  You will need something to cut it with.

Otherwise, on AirsoftMechanics there is another person (UTC Pyro) who also sells kits in the US I believe.

Any recommendations on thickness? I've seen the kits shown with thicknesses that appear to be from 1/8 to about 1/2 inch thicknesses.
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Offline Whiskey11

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2010, 09:35:37 AM »
Quote from: "axisofoil"
Quote from: "Whiskey11"
You can make your own too... McMaster Carr has sheets of Sorbothane (you want 70 Durometer or higher) for relativly inexpensive.  You will need something to cut it with.

Otherwise, on AirsoftMechanics there is another person (UTC Pyro) who also sells kits in the US I believe.

Any recommendations on thickness? I've seen the kits shown with thicknesses that appear to be from 1/8 to about 1/2 inch thicknesses.

Start with an 1/8"  1/2" is WAY too much.  Generally the distance from the cylinder head (with original rubber pad removed) is about 6mm.  I confirmed this using my digital calipers and two of the rubber bumpers from some old TM piston heads I had laying about.  The rubber bumpers are 3mm thick, two of them stacked on top of each other adjusted the piston back to exactly where it needs to be.  The 1/8in is just over 3MM (3.175 to be exact) so pull the rubber bumper off, install the sorbo where rubber bumper was, then glue the rubber bumper back on OR get a pad that is 1/4" thick but has a high durometer to protect the surface from wearing out.  These Sorbo pads DO wear out eventually, using an 1/8" thick peice then gluing the stock rubber pad on should fix the issues and still provide the AoE adjustment and the stress relief properties of Sorbo.  I'm not sure about sound reduction as it's still hitting a rubber pad, but thats a minor reason to get Sorbo IMO.
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Offline axisofoil

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Re: What's up with that?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2010, 12:49:22 PM »
1/8th of 70 durometer installed... sound dampening isn't very noticable. it takes the metallic clang out of gearbox operation, but most of the guns noise still is coming from the motor and gears. it might make a difference downrange, but I have no way to test that. the sound is deeper and more thuddy. that's the only sound difference. this material is really cool though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »