Media at it's best

[israfael]

I think the answer here is training and arming the masses to take a more proactive role in maintaining their way of life - NOT increasing "security" with Mall Ninjas and metal detectors.

i am soooo signing up to be a mall ninja!!

[Altered_Soul]

Although I respect the right to bear arms more than most folk in this country do, I do not see a reason for someone to bring one shopping for christmas presents.  If everyone was expected to carry a firearm into a densely public place, then someone with negative intentions would easily be able to take out a few people before capping himself (which is typically the case).  And even if you are carrying, do you really view yourself as beign able to get a shot?  If you are in the situation, are you really putting your hand on your pistol grip the entire time you are "accompanying" your lady-friend/wife in the undergarment section?  No, I gaurantee you are not, because you would freak out everyone and get ejected.  Chances are you will not get the chance to fire that firearm in defense and the sicko with the gun as well has already killed to his desire.  

Not everything can be prevented, but this country goes through swings like any other country.  It was lead-painted toys a couple of months ago, hear about that much anymore?  Now it will be guns again, and I doubt the solution will end up being, train everyone to carry guns.  Because then you are in the same boat as now.  99% people who know how to use guns and carry, and 1% who now also have training and inclination to use guns for ill-will.  That 1% will always trump the other 99%.  It always has and will continue to do so, no matter how many guns there are in a mall.  

As for airsoft, this whole thing sucks ass.  They really don't like getting their hands dirty to pull up a story.  They can be negative with facts that people can see, or they can be sensationally negative and be easier to notice.  Hmmm, I wonder where they will go with that?

[Maestro]

I'll trust any CCW holder that I personally know to take down an asshole before he does too much damage.  How many people would the Omaha guy have been able to kill if after he started shooting he was taken out by 3 CCWs from 3 different places while he was looking for another old lady to shoot?

[Ares]

there's one fundamental problem with that. I will trust any CCW holder to neutralize a situation, and the more CCW's I know are around me, the safer I am, right?

I want to say "ABSOLUTELY" but therein lies the problem. If 3 people happen to be in the right place at the wrong time, and are forced to draw their weapons at the same time, i will be AMAZED if some innocent by-stander is NOT hurt or killed by a "friendly" stray bullet.

In the heat of the moment, how does one shooter know wether or not another "friendly" shooter isn't an accomplice to the bad guy? I don't want to hear anyone say "I can tell the difference" because the truth is, you probably can't (and it's impossible to say), unless you and the rest of the "friendly" shooters are in uniform.

I've been CCW trained at Gunsite, 8 hours in a classroom, and another 8 hours on the range. I will renew my training as often as i can, and take longer and more advanced classes as often as i can, most people don't, and go the 5 years with little to no practice or supplemental training. Myself, being below 21, will renew my training every 6 months until I am of age.

[Maestro]

of course, in a world where a whole bunch of people were armed all the time, some asshole wouldn't go into the mall to shoot people up, because he wouldn't succeed.  Hate to quote a book, but in a society where everybody carries, you pull out a gun, you get one of two reactions depending on your general attitude.  Either everyone comes over to check out your cool new toy, or you get 2 bullets in your skull.

Also, if guns were common place, the awe and mystique that gives people like the Omaha and VA Fucktards feelings of power wouldn't be there.

[Altered_Soul]

If the mystique for guns goes away, they will turn to something else.  Poison, handmade bombs, anything.  

Making guns less Mysterious has nothing to do with it to be honest.  

Even if 100% of people in a contained area of 100 people were carrying, they are not thinking of defense 100% of the time, are not tactically moving everywhere they go with their pistol in the ready position.  That would be ridiculous even in your utopian world of gun protection.  Now, only one person is psychopathic.  They are dedicated to kill.  They are therefore the only 1% dedicated to kill in the entire group, and except for maybe another 1% of that group actively paranoid of gunmen, the rest are sheep.  That psycho doesn't want to live.  Doesn't want to live is the key.  You could kill him with a hundred bullets, but the psycho doesn't care, if they haven't taken their own lives yet.  They kill as many as they want.  He gets the drop on at LEAST one person, no matter how well armed.  Gunshot, boom, one person dead.  They with their family?  Three to more dead in a few shots.  Maybe someone by now has caught on and started running/drawing their weapon.  

My point is, these psychos will not be stopped by everyone being strapped.  If everyone were carrying, then everyone would get used to seeing guns, and not notice the sick ones.  Then the shots.  Unless this is the first time ever, people in this 100% carrying world will get used to gun shots, and therefore will react slower.  I don't care what super-human speeds and skills you think you have, no one will stop those initial deaths.  Still happy now about your CCW carrying world?  Those dead people aren't.  Those fancy death wands are useless at that point.  Ever notice the trend of general lack of care with these psychos?  They don't care.  They wouldn't care if there was a tank in their way.  Even a society of tank wielding citizens wouldn't stop him.  The problem of escalation, not to mention the social qualities of that CCW carrying world, are a constant factor.  

Hate to bring out my more "anti-gun toting" wild west side to myself, as I generally support the right to bear arms, but this world of everyone carrying is just ludicrous.  There are a million more ways to solve violence than just more violence.  And even then, not everything is perfect, and some part of society will fail some people, and eventually this will happen.  It will happen, and its sad really, but a world of gunslingers won't fix a damn thing.

[Ares]

Still happy now about your CCW carrying world?

yes.

Take switzerland for example. They're VERY class 3 friendly. Most citizens own automatic weapons, and some even carry their auto weapons. Murder rate by guns? Nil.

and who cares if people rant about poison and home made bombs? I've never heard of ANYONE using poisons with anything but malevolent intent.  That is something worth being against. Home made bombs too... like pipe bombs? no good can come from that. I can understand owning hand grenades and 40-mm's if you're convinced that the u.s. will undergo a "28 days later" type catastrophe.

[Maestro]

I find it interesting that you refer to a world were people carry as a world of gunslingers, therefore saying that all of us who carry now are gunslingers.  And don't tell me that's not what you meant, because it IS what you said.  Thanks for the switzerland comment.  A tiny, wealthy country that even Hitler bypassed because everyone has a machine gun in their homes, EVERYONE.  And I mentioned in both posts that people would REACT after the initial shooting by taking down the bad guy, not walk around at the low ready looking for one.  Of course you can't stop the initial shootings, but you CAN stop the ones that would follow.

The end

[Altered_Soul]

My comments are mostly targetted towards to Maestro, Ares, I agree with you on the dangers of what you said.

As for being against poision and homemade explosives, of course you can be against them, thats kind of useless to say that.  At least, I hope so.  

My comments have nothing to do with gun violence to be honest, I am merely saying that even a 100% gun wielding society would not solve the problem of that one person wanting to kill, they want to be in the body bag too.  Violence will not stop them.  Other measures can be taken.  Other than the fact I have little faith in humans in order to trust everyone with firearms, I have no blatant excuse for not having a world like that.  

I always find you can't compare different societies and cultures violence rate to America's, the Swiss are a different people in a different place.  They make chocolate for a living and have MP5s to have fun with, why would you need crime  :lol:

Either way this is getting off topic and getting a touch too political for my taste regarding an airsoft site, don't want another ASF now do we lol?


Maestro:  Every situation is different.  No one is perfect.  Chaos changes all fortunes.  And by gunslingers I was just using a cool word.  Don't put ideologies and misconceptions in my mouth.  I honestly did not mean to use gunslingers in a negative way you pointed out.  Gunslingers are people who carry.  I am a gunslinger, you are a gunslinger.  Thank you for your input on what apparently I think, since you know me so well.  

Prevention is more effective than post-action.  No life lost is always better than lives lost, not to mention emotional and logistical turmoil associated to lives being lost and taken.

[Maestro]

cool with me bud

[deathbydanish]

Still happy now about your CCW carrying world?

yes.

Take switzerland for example. They're VERY class 3 friendly. Most citizens own automatic weapons, and some even carry their auto weapons. Murder rate by guns? Nil.

and who cares if people rant about poison and home made bombs? I've never heard of ANYONE using poisons with anything but malevolent intent.  That is something worth being against. Home made bombs too... like pipe bombs? no good can come from that. I can understand owning hand grenades and 40-mm's if you're convinced that the u.s. will undergo a "28 days later" type catastrophe.

I guess it is easier to regulate a smaller country like Switzerland.

The only problem I have with the anti-gun folks is that they seem to be the preachy, "cultured" types. Yet they are not subject matter experts in firearms or the implications of their use. They will demonize firearms without even using one in real life.

I guess its all about culture and perspective, we don't have a problem with guns here because its part of our regional culture. But on the other side of the continent you have people who aren't exposed to firearms in person, they only see and know what they are told through the media.

[Pheonix 797]

Guns in themselves have a negative conotation based on a variety of stiumli.

1. Loud and Smelly - (Like uncle Fred after Thanksgiving)

2. Black (ish) - Natural human reaction is to dislike the shade of black.

3. Complicated - People fear what they don't understand

You get the idea. Culturally yes I agree totally that guns have different personas depending on the part of the country and world you're in. When I lived in Minnesota guns are more recreational and a tool, nobody would dream of self-defense use because that's simply not an issue in that part of the country. Yet in countries like Angola the word "Kalashnikov" literally means "young man". To become a man you have to have a gun.

It's all about exposure. What you choose to expose yourself to in relation to guns is your perception. True parantage has something to do with it and paratange has a lot to do with everything about us.

Thus endeth the sermon so says The Rev!

P.S. I miss Curtis!

[azsarge]

Those of you who feel that it's not necessarily a good idea for me to train with and carry my handgun for self defense purposes - we'll just agree to disagree.  

Everyone else, carry your piece!

This is a healthy debate, and good points have been brought up on all sides.  I am just of the belief that the more trained and responsible CCW holders we have in society, the better.   That's my opinion.

As for carrying (visibly) in public, I agree that the sight of firearms is generally unsettling to most citizens.  Would I carry my piece OPENLY while I'm accompanying my girlfriend in Victorias Secret for Christmas shopping?  No, but I will have one on me concealed and so will she.

How would you feel if a loved one got shot in front of you by some criminal the day you decided to leave your gun at home?  

Just because you say the MEDIA will only dwell on the recent rise in shootings until the next story comes along, doesn't mean there won't be anymore shootings.  

To me, the solution is simple.  Think of getting shot as like getting killed in a car accident.  You wear your seatbelt to prevent injury, and you carry your gun to defend yourself.  Neither will work 100% of the time, but it will increase your chance of survival.

[Giland]

some quotes from an article about the colorado gunman who shot up the churches.

---quote---
The gunman was killed by a member of the church's armed security staff before police arrived, Myers said
---quote---

Armed person, in this case a security guard, saves lives.
A gun stopped a madman.

---quote---
Ashley Gibbs was getting into a car with David Harris when they heard the gunshots — a sound like someone kicking ice from the side of a car, she said. Harris said he saw the gunman, and it looked like he knew how to handle a weapon....
...
They stayed in the vehicle and prayed for the gunman.

"It was obvious that he was in some sort of pain and going through a lot," Gibbs told NBC's "Today" show. "I just prayed God would bring him (the gunman) peace."
---quote---

This just kills me. I just can't feel sorry for the gunmen. I can't. He chose to attack people to make himself feel better? I don't feel empathy or pity for him, I feel loathing.

Crazies who want to kill people will find a way. Guns might make it easier, but that is because people are aware of them, and lets face it, they are not difficult to use.

[TrevorS]

I want to say first to the clip wow, they did not do their homework and are not to bright.

also

...Take switzerland for example. They're VERY class 3 friendly. Most citizens own automatic weapons, and some even carry their auto weapons. Murder rate by guns? Nil....

true but i heard and the reason for that is for one the government requires them to have a firearm in their house for defense but the numbers are so low becz know one knows how to use them.