Give Them Nothing

[Raith]

http://munchkinwrangler.blogspot.com/20 ... thing.html

A long time ago, I had a discussion with my former mother-in-law about my desire to carry a gun for protection. She was very much opposed to the concept, to put it mildly. When I asked her what her plans were if she ever got robbed at gun- or knifepoint, she replied that she'd try and talk it out with her attacker, or just give them what they want.

"Everybody wants to be respected," she said. "We're all just human beings."

I told her that she was nurturing a very dangerous misconception, one that could very well get her hurt or killed someday.

There are people in this world to whom you're not a human being. They don't want to be respected by you. They don't care about you--they're not even really aware of you. They only care about the food you represent, the money that's in your pocket. You're not a person to them, but an obstacle. You're just in the way of the reward, like a wrapper around a candy bar, and these people are willing to discard you just like that wrapper in order to get what they want.

If you don't believe that, if you are one of the people who think that "everyone wants to be valued and respected", you are deluding yourself, to put it mildly. There are literally hundreds of surveillance camera videos out on the Internet that show criminals injuring or killing people for the transgression of not handing over the money or opening the safe fast enough. For those of you who think that "if you give them what they want, they'll go away", there are almost as many videos out there of people getting hurt or killed after handing over the goods, simply because they're now witnesses to a crime that allows for a lengthy jail term. Leaving you alive greatly increases the chance of getting caught, you see, and the extra ten years for shooting you don't enter the thug's mind. Besides, few people ever commit a crime expecting to get caught.

Whenever I see the camera footage of some poor convenience store clerk getting shot at point-blank range just because the robber is angry at the lack of cash in the drawer, or the fast food manager being shot as he is lying prone in front of his safe after the robbers have already removed the cash, I get angry. I feel anger at the thought of these low-lifes, people who have never known another way of making a living than to take what they want from others by force. I feel anger at the sight of someone casually taking another's life over a few hundred bucks--taking a husband from his wife, a son from his parents, or a father from his children, just because they're in the way. Can you imagine your life ending tonight, with you taking your last breaths on the dingy linoleum floor of some convenience store, just because you had the bad luck of drawing third shift? Can you imagine what it would be like to have everything taken from you in a few moments--your history, your knowledge, your hopes, your dreams, your consciousness--all over a few pieces of paper? If you can, don't you, too, feel white hot anger when you think of the person who would do such a thing to you without a second thought just so they can get a fix, pay the rent, and get a new game for the Playstation?

It's mind-boggling to me that there are people who perpetuate the dangerous myth that you can rely on the humanity and reason of a person who is already threatening to kill you over the contents of your wallet, an entirely inhumane and unreasonable act in itself.

"Violence begets violence", they say, as if that's somehow a bad thing. In the words of the late Jeff Cooper, I would certainly hope that it does. That's the whole point of self-defense: when reason doesn't work anymore, then naked force is the only thing that's left other than abject surrender. It would be a great and awesome world where the majority of criminals are the ones who end up in the body bag, and not their victims. Appeasement doesn't stop the bully or the thug, and neither does submission. What stops them is the knowledge that they're likely to bite off more than they can chew, which is why they invariably pick their targets among those who are perceived as meek or soft.

Think about it for a second, and pretend you're someone who makes a living by sticking guns in people's faces. Which kind of society would encourage you to keep doing what you're doing--one where you know people are being told to "give them what they want and don't resist", or one where people refuse to go quietly into that good night, and where they will fight back with anything that comes to hand?

No, the appropriate response to violence is not submission. Submission encourages the thugs, and it gives them absolutely no incentive to consider a career change. When you preach submission, you only guarantee more of the behavior that takes advantage of that submission. The only appropriate response to violence is white-hot anger. When someone sticks a gun in your face and threatens to kill you over the contents of your wallet or your register, your response ought to be rage. The very thought of some low-life thug threatening to snuff you out and make your children orphans for no reason other than the money you carry ought to make you furious.

And then you need to put that fury to good use. Yield nothing, not an inch, not a penny, not a hair on your head, without fighting for it tooth and nail. Do your level best to ensure that if someone has to end up in a body bag this hour, it won't be your body in that bag. And even if it should happen to be your turn to take your seat in Valhalla, you might as well put your best effort into making sure that you arrive there with your attacker in a firm headlock.

I liked it.

[Vince]

I like that too.

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

Interesting read, however, I think he underestimates what it takes to actually take a human life. I can only imagine that if all petty convenience store robberies ended in murder there would be no more convenience stores.

The problem is that the robber usually has the element of surprise. In those same videos that this guy describes, the thieves often charge in and demand what they want so quickly that the clerk rarely has time to react to the perpetrator. Now, if you were an armed convenience store clerk, would you even attempt to draw on the bad guy, virtually assuring your demise, or would you just give him what he wanted? I can understand where this guy is coming from, to go down fighting, but it seems to me that if you just give the guy what he wants it is unlikely that he will kill you, whereas if you attempted to draw a weapon he would almost certainly kill you.

[XavierMace]

Most videos I have seen of convenience store robberies show the robber to be nervous and as concerned about somebody walking in on him as the clerks actions.  In addition many times the safe or other items the robber is demanding requires the clerk to put his hands out of the robbers line of sight.

I would say many times the clerk has a chance to defend himself with a minimal increase in the danger to himself.

[Altered_Soul]

This thread is only missing a response from the all-knowing guru of defensive tactics... Leonidas.

I was just waiting for the "but take from them, EVERYTHING!!!!"

Although I agree that some criminals might have murderous intentions, I could easily look at the newspaper and assume every person in the country is a cop-killer.  Oh wait, policemen are trained and armed, and they are still murdered every day.  

Having lived in cities and been robbed once, I would never pull a gun on an attacker.  Yes, there is the potential that they are of sound mind to kill/beat you so you don't remember them, but if they are smart enough (remember we are speaking of petty theives here) to remember that, then they should have been smart enough to wear a hoodie and a bandana (and as happened to me, he wore a bandana of the opposite gangs color).  And then as such, they would then know that killing someone is much more an offense then robbing someone, and will draw more attention to themselves, and they will never be able to spend their money.

Now looking at the other side, a criminal without a clear plan, they a) probably don't plan on executing you, and b) are thinking of not getting caught doing it and bolting as soon as they get money.  These types assume they can scare you, even with a water pistol.  They take the stash and bolt.  A purse snatcher is not going to stop to shoot you in the face... too much attention.  They are desperate, and yes, no pleading will stop them and may even lead them to anger because you did the one thing they don't want, wasted time.  So, give them your wallet, your watch, whatever.  Don't delay them, because thats what they are trying to avoid at all costs.

The last bracket contains the psychopaths, and these bastards are going to kill/harm/rape you period.  They desire to kill, and no amount of talk/giving/defense is going to stop them.  None.  You are going to die if you can't stop them.  Even if you try to stop them they most likely have the jump on you and no amount of hand movements will convince them you are not reaching for a gun/knife/pepperspray.  

So to me, if you have only 1/3 types of criminal looking to kill you outright because they are psychopaths, while the other 2/3 are only going to do it if you fuck up their (most likely ill-advised) plan, I don't see the point of not giving them ten dollars.  If you meet that rare 1/3rd (and the percentages are most likely not scaled, only though type), you are going to die without being able to defend yourself or kick and scream if you wanted to in the first place.  

Most muggings/robbings don't happen like they seem to in the movies, with some gangster coming up on you with a loaded glock and demanding your money or in an alley in public (why the hell would you be in an alley).  Instead it happens exceedingly subtle.  Person walking towards you or behind you.  Gets in your way, and says only: Give me your wallet.  Your immediate disbelief quickly turns into fear as you realize you are getting robbed, and this guy (if you are not paying attention to your surroundings or look like a loaded target, which is what they look for) has come out of nowhere (to you).  I didn't care if I saw a knife or a gun, I opened the wallet, and gave him my cash.   And then he was gone around the next corner.  I got back safe to my Dorm, shaken up to hell, and called the police.  Gave them the description, said they doubted if they could catch him, and that gangs wear rivals colors to get away easier.  They caught the dude later, but not on the same charges unfortunately, through a snitch.  

In my honest opinion, being abrasive in something as petty as this leads to more people getting killed over something as insubstantial as money than those who give and let go.  I in no way believe that the "making them feel guilty and talking them out of it" works in such a quick scenario, and of course to the rare 1/3, it will likely accelerate it.  

If my family were on the line and not money I can make back (unlike those scumbags), there would be a different story.  Its not black and white unfortunately, so even what I say here could change in a heartbeat when something hits the fan, but taking a pure abrasive stance is just as bad as trying to "talk" them out of it.

[Doc Hollywood]

In an instance where there are two armed people faced off against each other, superior training, proficiency and performance under pressure will determine the outcome.

I put no less than 100 rounds downrage for P&P on a weekly basis.  I practice weapon presentation so I can do it in my sleep, blindfolded and on the ground.

I have been robbed at gunpoint before.  I have also had the occasion to present my weapon in response to a threat; and I recall that it was smoothly done and I was calm and rational.

I am intimately familiar with the laws on use of force and I have no hesitation to use deadly force where it is lawful.  I am better trained, better armed, and a better shot than the bad guys.

Its not my wallet I am reaching for.....

[Altered_Soul]

In an instance where there are two armed people faced off against each other, superior training, proficiency and performance under pressure will determine the outcome.

I put no less than 100 rounds downrage for P&P on a weekly basis.  I practice weapon presentation so I can do it in my sleep, blindfolded and on the ground.

I have been robbed at gunpoint before.  I have also had the occasion to present my weapon in response to a threat; and I recall that it was smoothly done and I was calm and rational.

I am intimately familiar with the laws on use of force and I have no hesitation to use deadly force where it is lawful.  I am better trained, better armed, and a better shot than the bad guys.

Its not my wallet I am reaching for.....

You are not everyone though.  I have no issue with people defending themselves, but I would say that if a majority of Americans decided to "fight back", the murder rate would increase exponentially, because not everyone knows how to properly fire back.  

What if the attacker is a former Marine and was fairly good at a pistol?

If he has the drop, aka your back is to him, and you have no idea of what he has on you, do you expect to pull a Rambo and spin, draw, disengage the safety, and pull the trigger (if you are loaded and chambered?)

It's just something, regardless of talent or ability, that I wouldn't risk.  We are not talking a shootout, as those change the variable greatly.  I am talking about a chance mugging by one or more thugs.  

Trained police officers get killed every day, even killed by those who easily have much less "experience" shooting.  

Of course, these scnearios change if you involve my family, my friends, and alter the playing field.  If someone is holding up a bank and I can get the drop on the guy(s), I will take them out unless other circumstances apply, but otherwise I might miss, and let lose a murder streak (including myself), that might not have happened if I had laid low and allowed the robber to steal federally insured money.  

Again, thats a different scenario, but thats part of my point, the variables are too great to even imagine at some points.

[deathbydanish]

In an instance where there are two armed people faced off against each other, superior training, proficiency and performance under pressure will determine the outcome.

I put no less than 100 rounds downrage for P&P on a weekly basis.  I practice weapon presentation so I can do it in my sleep, blindfolded and on the ground.

I have been robbed at gunpoint before.  I have also had the occasion to present my weapon in response to a threat; and I recall that it was smoothly done and I was calm and rational.

I am intimately familiar with the laws on use of force and I have no hesitation to use deadly force where it is lawful.  I am better trained, better armed, and a better shot than the bad guys.

Its not my wallet I am reaching for.....

You are not everyone though.  I have no issue with people defending themselves, but I would say that if a majority of Americans decided to "fight back", the murder rate would increase exponentially, because not everyone knows how to properly fire back.  

What if the attacker is a former Marine and was fairly good at a pistol?

If he has the drop, aka your back is to him, and you have no idea of what he has on you, do you expect to pull a Rambo and spin, draw, disengage the safety, and pull the trigger (if you are loaded and chambered?)

It's just something, regardless of talent or ability, that I wouldn't risk.  We are not talking a shootout, as those change the variable greatly.  I am talking about a chance mugging by one or more thugs.  

Trained police officers get killed every day, even killed by those who easily have much less "experience" shooting.  

Of course, these scnearios change if you involve my family, my friends, and alter the playing field.  If someone is holding up a bank and I can get the drop on the guy(s), I will take them out unless other circumstances apply, but otherwise I might miss, and let lose a murder streak (including myself), that might not have happened if I had laid low and allowed the robber to steal federally insured money.  

Again, thats a different scenario, but thats part of my point, the variables are too great to even imagine at some points.

I found your response a little funny since its on an airsoft board, I know Doc used to consult with airsoft guns, I wonder why you haven't tried training with one like various LEO agencies do. I know there is a difference between theory and applications, but at least you could bridge that gap a little bit more with training.

[gixser13]

I have been robbed at gunpoint before.  

I am intimately familiar with the laws on use of force
I have no hesitation to use deadly force where it is lawful.  
I am better trained, better armed, and a better shot than the bad guys.

Its not my wallet I am reaching for.....

So, What did you do when YOU got robbed?

[Sergeant First Class Keenan]

Doc Hollywood,

Its guys like you that make the uniformed and untrained safer without them ever knowing it. My hats off to you sir.

If only the bad guys had firearms, well that would suck alot more.

[Altered_Soul]

I found your response a little funny since its on an airsoft board, I know Doc used to consult with airsoft guns, I wonder why you haven't tried training with one like various LEO agencies do. I know there is a difference between theory and applications, but at least you could bridge that gap a little bit more with training.

I don't mean to offend but I have no idea what you are asking/insinuating.

I think this is a proper response:

Even though I have played with airsoft for 4 years now and have shot with real steel, I do not have the confidence in a quick motion snap shot with a real firearm.  I have limited experience with real pistols, and of course I am not walking around with a long arm under my pants.  Doc is clearly well versed in it all, but my point is that he is not everyone.  Not everyone views guns with ease, and then the people who do support guns (like myself), don't have time/money to put into training and firearms in general.  

I am not trying to take a stab at Doc and scream "ZOMG YOU ARE SO WRONG FOR WANTING TO KILL A ROBBER!!!111!!!! PC hisssssssssssssssss", no, I am saying that just because he has formal and extended training with a firearm and knowledge of the law does not mean that everyone does/can/will.  He is a rarity that I respect greatly, and I am not even sure if I have met him yet (only been to one OP out here).  I have to agree with Cpl. Keenan here that people like him can create a safer world without many knowing it.  

My point is more that even Doc could be caught off guard, however rare, and nothing will save you if you decide to pull the gun instead of the wallet in that scenario.  

Unless you are Jack Bauer or Chuck Norris, your offspring will become Bruce Wayne.

[Doc Hollywood]

I have been robbed at gunpoint before.  

So, What did you do when YOU got robbed?

It was in Commifornia (California for the uninformed) so I was unfortunately unarmed (even though the bad guys had handguns).  I kept my cool and they took my wallet - which contained a maxed out credit card and $5.  Then they ran off to the waiting getaway car and by the time they were moving I had 911 on the phone.  (They robebd me in a phone booth of all places).

Best part is, its a dead end road at this marina and they had to drive past the Emmeryville Police Department on their way out.  They didn't make it past.

[Altered_Soul]

Best part is, its a dead end road at this marina and they had to drive past the Emmeryville Police Department on their way out.  They didn't make it past.

Hahaha, that reminds of the time in Albany when a guy robbed a bank, got in his getaway car, and then broke down in front of the police station.  

That was epic.