Airsoft Arizona

Arizona Game Discussions => General Airsoft Game Discussion => Topic started by: Archer on February 12, 2012, 07:08:56 PM

Title: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Archer on February 12, 2012, 07:08:56 PM
Chip - are you going to contact the land trust to see how we can get around this permit issue? or can we get an admandment to the use permit? im cool with paying the $15 to play at Hatfield, and other AZTL... i would contact them but i work during their hours so i figured a professional websurfer would have more time.  :P
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: bigwavedave on February 12, 2012, 07:27:49 PM
paintball and airsoft as well as target shooting are prohibited on state trust land even with a rec use permit. 
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 12, 2012, 08:11:38 PM
paintball and airsoft as well as target shooting are prohibited on state trust land even with a rec use permit. 
Neat, so the deputy that told us we needed one and that he had one personally because he played paintball is actually clueless. I suppose that shouldn't surprise me. Of course, one could make the argument that it's all about interpretation, so if he comes back to enforce it, he'd be enforcing it incorrectly but would let us play.

Then again, of the ~5 times I've had the sheriff/police stop us, I've never seen the same guy come back....
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 12, 2012, 08:18:59 PM
Yep, he was clueless:

Quote
Q. What does my Recreation Permit allow me to do on Trust Land?

A. Your recreation permit allows you to enjoy non-consumptive recreational activities including: hiking, horseback riding, bicycling, picnics, photography, bird watching, sightseeing, camping (limited to 14 days per year), and limited off highway vehicle use (restricted to designated roads and trails), for non-commercial and non-competitive purposes.

An Trust Land Recreation Permit does not permit target shooting, paintball, airsoft, recreational flying (i.e. ultralite aircraft), vehicular 'rock hopping', sand railing, fireworks, or congregating in groups larger than 19 people (see Event Permit). Visiting prehistoric and historic cultural or archaeological sites, Metal detecting, Collecting or removing natural products (rocks, stone, soil, fossils, mineral specimens, cacti, saguaro or cholla skeletons, plants (live or dead), or firewood for home use, are all prohibited. Nor does it permit any activity that would otherwise be illegal or conflict with local laws or ordinances. A Recreation Permit does not authorize use of non-state lands such as military, federal, Tribal, or private lands.

Reference: http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/natural/rec_permitFaqs.htm#Q13 (http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/natural/rec_permitFaqs.htm#Q13)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mr Random 42 on February 12, 2012, 08:49:30 PM
So what does this mean then? We're SOL when it comes to Hatfield? Or are there other zones in the area we could use alternatively?
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: xTanTricK on February 12, 2012, 08:51:45 PM
So what does this mean then? We're SOL when it comes to Hatfield? Or are there other zones in the area we could use alternatively?

From what I can tell, unfortunately Hatfield is a no go.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Plauge on February 12, 2012, 09:09:40 PM
RIP for now hatfield... Hopefully we can get around this
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 12, 2012, 09:13:44 PM
Okay, so we either play on the non-state land of Hatfield or go to some other place they can't bother us at.
Screw 'em, it'll work out. ;)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Plauge on February 12, 2012, 09:14:20 PM
Hopefully
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 12, 2012, 09:16:58 PM
It'll be okaY, don't be a sheep.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Katana0 on February 12, 2012, 10:12:28 PM
So if I am to interpret this properly, Hatfield is no longer usable as a play field?  Or were you trying to get a permit to organize an event down there (and have people pay to get in and whatnot)?
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: hieu66 on February 12, 2012, 10:28:28 PM
I work downtown in the sandra day oconner federal courthouse, and I know some of the attorneys and ex cops that works there. Will ask them tomorrow and let you guys know. It will sucks, if we loose Hatfield!!
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 13, 2012, 08:15:43 AM
Just have to find a spot that's not AZ trust land. I would think maybe next field location, a spot more off away from a street -make it harder for some cop to come to.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: XavierMace on February 13, 2012, 09:02:10 AM
I work downtown in the sandra day oconner federal courthouse, and I know some of the attorneys and ex cops that works there. Will ask them tomorrow and let you guys know. It will sucks, if we loose Hatfield!!

There's nothing to ask them, it's really quite clear.  Is Hatfield on AZ Trust Land?  If yes, then airsofting is a no go.  It's very clearly defined.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 13, 2012, 10:16:50 AM
FWIW, this will be the 3rd or 4th time that Hatfield has been declared dead since I started playing there ten years ago. As long as folks are willing, it'll likely stay active until they sell it off and raze it like they did with the NE section of Hatfield, now known as the empty dirt lot off of 107th and Happy Valley Parkway.

For me it's simple. The deputy said a permit would work. We know it doesn't, but if he comes back to enforce it, he's enforcing what he believes, so I'll show him my permit. If another one comes, well gosh officer, the deputy here on 2/12 told us a permit was fine, sorry about that.

Then again, I'm always one to push the rules. YMMV.

Peter
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: PhoenixShadowCompany on February 13, 2012, 11:20:54 AM
FWIW, this will be the 3rd or 4th time that Hatfield has been declared dead since I started playing there ten years ago. As long as folks are willing, it'll likely stay active until they sell it off and raze it like they did with the NE section of Hatfield, now known as the empty dirt lot off of 107th and Happy Valley Parkway.

For me it's simple. The deputy said a permit would work. We know it doesn't, but if he comes back to enforce it, he's enforcing what he believes, so I'll show him my permit. If another one comes, well gosh officer, the deputy here on 2/12 told us a permit was fine, sorry about that.
Then again, I'm always one to push the rules. YMMV.
Peter


So what your saying is break the law and what they don't know won't hurt them. Isn't that hazardous to the Airsoft community .
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Archer on February 13, 2012, 12:20:19 PM
FWIW, this will be the 3rd or 4th time that Hatfield has been declared dead since I started playing there ten years ago. As long as folks are willing, it'll likely stay active until they sell it off and raze it like they did with the NE section of Hatfield, now known as the empty dirt lot off of 107th and Happy Valley Parkway.

For me it's simple. The deputy said a permit would work. We know it doesn't, but if he comes back to enforce it, he's enforcing what he believes, so I'll show him my permit. If another one comes, well gosh officer, the deputy here on 2/12 told us a permit was fine, sorry about that.
Then again, I'm always one to push the rules. YMMV.
Peter


So what your saying is break the law and what they don't know won't hurt them. Isn't that hazardous to the Airsoft community .

the law is alot like the bible, it is how you read it... and ignorance is bliss. i say we get the permit and play dumb.... i like to push the limits my slef also Peter. but that is my thoughts on the process.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: bigwavedave on February 13, 2012, 12:51:46 PM
FWIW, this will be the 3rd or 4th time that Hatfield has been declared dead since I started playing there ten years ago. As long as folks are willing, it'll likely stay active until they sell it off and raze it like they did with the NE section of Hatfield, now known as the empty dirt lot off of 107th and Happy Valley Parkway.

For me it's simple. The deputy said a permit would work. We know it doesn't, but if he comes back to enforce it, he's enforcing what he believes, so I'll show him my permit. If another one comes, well gosh officer, the deputy here on 2/12 told us a permit was fine, sorry about that.

Then again, I'm always one to push the rules. YMMV.

Peter

I can totally understand your POV, in that It really sucks that there is so much State land that is available and it's been deemed "illegal" for all kinds of activities.  I used to ride my CRF450 under the Powerlines at P&D on State Land three times a week, untill some idiot politicians decided that reducing my dust in the desert was a way to get federal air quality $$.   I sent a letter to all my state represenatives telling them what kind of BS I thought it was...and then I sold my bikes...  :(

We have tons of STL in the East Valley that would be great to hold regular weekly games at, BUT....we don't go there becasue it's "illegal" and I/we don't want to bring airsoft into the limelight anymore than it needs to be, especially in defiance of existing laws that we are well aware of.

I have no doubt that the deputy who made contact hasn't got a clue and so a permit may get you off the hook if he shows again, however it may not be the long term solution or the wisest idea.  I'm sure just about every person reading these forums has played illegaly at some point or another, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

The USFS has been extremely liberal with respect to our attendance and hosting of games on USFS land, also there is tons of BLM land that is adjacent to the NW valley that may be suitable for gameplay.  If you use ONLY Bio BB's and make contact with any LEOs in a positive manner there is rarely an issue.

4 peaks AO is approximately 35 miles from the intersection with SR202 and Country club drive / SR87.
Mt Ord is another 15 miles or so.  These are all close enough to reduce the issues with Hatfield.

There are also afew AO's in the East Valley that are not posted on AA boards because many of the airsoft vets don't want irresponsible actions by afew players to cause long term issues, unfortunately untill airsofters begin to self police by obeying the (often stupid) laws and making sure those who attend games are squared away there's gonna be problems.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: XavierMace on February 13, 2012, 12:57:05 PM
Quote
the law is alot like the bible, it is how you read it... and ignorance is bliss.

It's how you read it?

Quote
An Trust Land Recreation Permit does not permit target shooting, paintball, airsoft, recreational flying (i.e. ultralite aircraft), vehicular 'rock hopping', sand railing, fireworks, or congregating in groups larger than 19 people (see Event Permit).

I must be getting feeble in my old age.  Explain to me how you read that in a manner that says it's OK.  Suck it up, act like responsible adults, set an example for the children, and find somewhere else to play.  You sound like a 13 year old trying to justify playing in the park behind Walgreens.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Shadow on February 13, 2012, 01:07:59 PM
The USFS has been extremely liberal with respect to our attendance and hosting of games on USFS land, also there is tons of BLM land that is adjacent to the NW valley that may be suitable for gameplay.  If you use ONLY Bio BB's and make contact with any LEOs in a positive manner there is rarely an issue.

BLM land is your best bet with Forest Service being second.  I've previously contacted the AZ BLM and have an email from the AZ office in PHX stating exactly this:
Quote
Mr. Rose,
 
Your email concerning BLM lands and organizing air soft events was directed
to me.  Sorry for the delay.
 
If it is just casual use no permits are needed.  Just make sure that you
are on BLM land, and not on private land or State of Arizona lands.  In the
event that you are setting up a formal air soft event you might need a
recreational permit from the BLM.  Call the BLM Phoenix District Office at
623-580-5500 for the necessary instructions on how to file a permit.
 
Good luck.
 
Michael J. Werner
U.S. Bureau of Land Management
Arizona State Office
One North Central Avenue, Suite 800
Phoenix, Arizona  85004-4427
Phone: (602) 417-9561
Fax: (602) 417-9454
Michael_Werner@blm.gov
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: punkerr1313 on February 13, 2012, 01:47:54 PM
What about TNF near Lake Bartlett? I've played one game up there at a quad/dirtbike trail staging area and all the riders were nice and waved. Not sure about the legality. TNF is pretty large though there has to be some land in there that can be used for airsoft without having to drive halfway between the valley and flagstaff.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 13, 2012, 01:53:01 PM
TNF is ok if under 75 people, then you need a permit.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 13, 2012, 01:57:16 PM
BLM land is your best bet with Forest Service being second.  I've previously contacted the AZ BLM and have an email from the AZ office in PHX stating exactly this:
This is good news indeed, then, as there is a decent patch of BLM land about 1/4 mile west of the Hatfield AO. Perhaps we merely switch to it?

So what your saying is break the law and what they don't know won't hurt them. Isn't that hazardous to the Airsoft community .
No, I'm saying that the direction given to us by the person enforcing the law was that the specified permit would be sufficient for him to allow play to continue. He stated that he has one that he uses for paintball so one assumes he's aware of exactly what his fellow LEOs enforce. His first concern, upon making initial contact, was to make sure we weren't out there driving vehicles. He then seemed to lose a little interest when he learned we weren't.

For all we know, their biggest focus on areas like that are ORVs and the airsoft / paintball games aren't of interest unless someone complains, particularly in areas like that that aren't being maintained and are going to be torn down when "progress" continues.

So, I stand by what I said. I'll get a permit and continue to play, knowing that I am doing so by the suggestion of the Law *Enforcement* Officer that patrols the area, assuming that others do the same. If not, moot, and I'll play elsewhere.

Anyway, I like TPA_shadow's recommendation best - we should just shift west and watch the boundaries.

Peter
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: hieu66 on February 13, 2012, 02:05:47 PM
I second with Flick, if it's not fenced and entrance is provided. I'll go if you guys will.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: punkerr1313 on February 13, 2012, 02:06:32 PM
Does anyone know of some good AOs in TNF that aren't too far from the entrance in the Cave Creek/Carefree area? Kinda off topic but as long as were talking about legality I'd like to find spots to play that aren't going to get the community and I in trouble.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: bigwavedave on February 13, 2012, 02:19:41 PM
Does anyone know of some good AOs in TNF that aren't too far from the entrance in the Cave Creek/Carefree area? Kinda off topic but as long as were talking about legality I'd like to find spots to play that aren't going to get the community and I in trouble.

Obviously being close to any campgrounds is a no go, specific shooting regulations are on the Tonto Website with a Restriction Map.  Read it and follow it.  And yes You are shooting, so yes they all apply, with that said I would always recommend finding areas that are away from public in general so that law enforcement isn't encouraged to put a special order out that stops airsoft play on the Tonto, which is totally possilbe if somebody screws it up.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5245188 (http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5245188)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Old Dog on February 13, 2012, 02:43:34 PM
Does anyone know of some good AOs in TNF that aren't too far from the entrance in the Cave Creek/Carefree area? Kinda off topic but as long as were talking about legality I'd like to find spots to play that aren't going to get the community and I in trouble.

Obviously being close to any campgrounds is a no go, specific shooting regulations are on the Tonto Website with a Restriction Map.  Read it and follow it.  And yes You are shooting, so yes they all apply, with that said I would always recommend finding areas that are away from public in general so that law enforcement isn't encouraged to put a special order out that stops airsoft play on the Tonto, which is totally possilbe if somebody screws it up.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5245188 (http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5245188)

Dave is right on and another thought is that if and WHEN and that seems to be a distinct possibility, one must be ready for the probability of their guns and maybe even their gear being confiscated when playing in a restricted area and the man shows up...

IS IT WORTH THAT???
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: F.O.B on February 13, 2012, 03:19:56 PM

So, I stand by what I said. I'll get a permit and continue to play, knowing that I am doing so by the suggestion of the Law *Enforcement* Officer that patrols the area, assuming that others do the same. If not, moot, and I'll play elsewhere.

Anyway, I like TPA_shadow's recommendation best - we should just shift west and watch the boundaries.

Peter

I couldn't agree with you more Peter.
We'll have smaller games that are better organized and more strategic.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 13, 2012, 06:12:20 PM
I used to ride alot out in the desert with the recreational permit, before stuff changed around, I too had to sell my dirtbike, along with my father.
Wow, you had to sell your father? That's pretty rough!

(Sorry, thought a moment of levity might be appreciated.)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: bigwavedave on February 13, 2012, 06:24:22 PM
@BigWaveDave

I used to ride alot out in the desert with the recreational permit, before stuff changed around, I too had to sell my dirtbike, along with my father.
yeah and they pretty much pulled the
@BigWaveDave

I used to ride alot out in the desert with the recreational permit, before stuff changed around, I too had to sell my dirtbike, along with my father.
Right before they shut it down i crested a jump and almost turned a city of scottsdale pd into a whoop...lol.   I would love to get some local gun advocacy groups to support airsoft to get a voice in the political arena.  is there anybody locally?   i dont mean nra
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 13, 2012, 08:42:12 PM
He stated that he has one that he uses for paintball so one assumes he's aware of exactly what his fellow LEOs enforce.
...
So, I stand by what I said. I'll get a permit and continue to play, knowing that I am doing so by the suggestion of the Law *Enforcement* Officer that patrols the area, assuming that others do the same.
You know what they say about assumptions: they make an ass out of you and me.

That said, a lot of you guys are suggesting fields that are a LOT further east as alternatives. Now I realize that most of you come from the suburban areas of the valley, but not all of us do. I, for one, come from way out in the boonies, and even Hatfield was a 40-minute drive eastbound. I realize you can only make so many people happy, but do at least try to consider us far-west-siders, few as we may be?
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Plauge on February 13, 2012, 09:13:40 PM
There's a place called Atlantis it's like a town but no one ever goes there that might b a place in the fUture
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: DMAN007 on February 13, 2012, 09:21:41 PM
We could start hosting weekly games out at four peaks.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: spazz on February 14, 2012, 12:34:09 AM
if i had the $30 for gas every week id just go to fighter town for $15 + the $3 or so it cost me in gas to get there and back.

in 10 years that is the first leo to say anything about us playing airsoft out there.
lets scout the land down the street.

bambi you live pretty close. can you and yur dad take a print out of the map and scout the area, mabey take some pics and see what the lay of the land is like?
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: GH(+)ST on February 14, 2012, 01:32:20 AM
jeez. airsoft community seems a little shot down at the present. got to love laws made by the politic men. This is not thier greatest concern but you would think they would at least.........no .....i wouldn't think that... never mind, politicians are just evil. and law enforcers are payed to be pests. I respect them to a degree but things like this make old fasion going out side and getting away from my computer hard as hell.  Maybe we could promote airsoft by getting with some health nuts and use them as supporters lol.

But seriously i am concerned for airsoft and it's survival.  I kinda want to move to a place like flagstaff or something and play in the woods.  I almost got arrested when i shot and missed a guy and my bb hit the poor cactus. It's existance is more important than the continuation of mine.

fight guys, i have yet to play a game hosted by this forum but i am not one to just watch it all turn into vanguard airsoft!

long live out door games!!!
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: ghost1216 on February 14, 2012, 11:26:15 AM
Not sure about this location but there is a huge open field at the end of greenway road.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 14, 2012, 11:45:12 AM
Ivan said something a while back about maybe running a game at the Wittmann junkyard. Does anybody know if he looked into that?
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 14, 2012, 12:37:32 PM
Just know that several people are right now scouting a area near old Hatfield.
Airsoft ain't dead, and we sure as hell aren't going to stop FREE games.
Stay tuned.
Chip
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: ThatGuy on February 14, 2012, 02:05:08 PM
The junk yard would be a PAID game. Not free.  I've been there It's a neet place but probably not going to happin
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Maddog7067 on February 14, 2012, 04:27:11 PM
Why were the cops called? Most of the time cops are called at airsoft event because people see people with guns and they get scared. There could be games on State Land if people don't see us playing. Cops are cool with Airsoft/paintball if they are out to have fun out of site of people.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: xTanTricK on February 14, 2012, 04:30:01 PM
Either the officer was passing by and since he was bored decided to enforce a law that most of the officers do not care for so long as we aren't harming anybody or somebody walking by called and didn't want us there or somebody just got upset with us. My guess is that it was the first one.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: headhunter on February 14, 2012, 06:57:47 PM
FWIW, this will be the 3rd or 4th time that Hatfield has been declared dead since I started playing there ten years ago. As long as folks are willing, it'll likely stay active until they sell it off and raze it like they did with the NE section of Hatfield, now known as the empty dirt lot off of 107th and Happy Valley Parkway.

For me it's simple. The deputy said a permit would work. We know it doesn't, but if he comes back to enforce it, he's enforcing what he believes, so I'll show him my permit. If another one comes, well gosh officer, the deputy here on 2/12 told us a permit was fine, sorry about that.

Then again, I'm always one to push the rules. YMMV.

Peter
im with you. an officer told us it was okay, i will use it as a scapegoat. fuck the rules.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 14, 2012, 07:03:42 PM
My guess is that it was the first one.
I agree. I went back and looked at the tracks he made coming over. It looks like he was following the Agua Fria from the north and came to our side under the bridge. Probably someone called in a report of people driving on the north side and he was trying to find them. Like I said earlier, the first thing out of his mouth was to ask if we were driving vehicles around. When I said no, that we were all on foot and our vehicles were parked off of 107th, he seemed to lose interest.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: headhunter on February 14, 2012, 07:10:28 PM
jeez. airsoft community seems a little shot down at the present. got to love laws made by the politic men. This is not thier greatest concern but you would think they would at least.........no .....i wouldn't think that... never mind, politicians are just evil. and law enforcers are payed to be pests. I respect them to a degree but things like this make old fasion going out side and getting away from my computer hard as  @#!*% .  Maybe we could promote airsoft by getting with some health nuts and use them as supporters lol.

But seriously i am concerned for airsoft and it's survival.  I kinda want to move to a place like flagstaff or something and play in the woods.  I almost got arrested when i shot and missed a guy and my bb hit the poor cactus. It's existance is more important than the continuation of mine.

fight guys, i have yet to play a game hosted by this forum but i am not one to just watch it all turn into vanguard airsoft!

long live out door games!!!
dont worry. im twelve, and i can get the cops called on me as many times as i want. most cops talk to us and they say that they used to have bb gun wars in their towns too. they think airsofting is cool most of the time...
but there are always the few strict ones.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Plauge on February 14, 2012, 07:14:30 PM
Especially when they aim their glock at your face headhunter...
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Wolfz on February 14, 2012, 07:41:15 PM
You two can shut your mouths. the juggernauts dont need a riot squad called on us.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: headhunter on February 14, 2012, 07:42:48 PM
You two can shut your mouths. the juggernauts dont need a riot squad called on us.
you gotz it. and aaron if you see this that was last year and i didn't see you with a g26 pointed at your face so shut up about it.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Wolfz on February 14, 2012, 07:44:06 PM
Take it to pm's, take it to pm's....
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Plauge on February 14, 2012, 08:04:47 PM
You two can shut your mouths. the juggernauts dont need a riot squad called on us.
you gotz it. and aaron if you see this that was last year and i didn't see you with a g26 pointed at your face so shut up about it.

Sorry but ill talk to u bout that tomorrow
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 14, 2012, 08:22:50 PM
I think we're all gonna like the new spot. I was out there scouting around today. It's just west of the old AO.
Just need to verify it's BLM but so far, so good.
(Much bigger area too) :)
Chip
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Red Devil on February 14, 2012, 08:30:02 PM
Hell yeah! Good job chip.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Watch_Dog on February 14, 2012, 09:24:40 PM
I think we're all gonna like the new spot. I was out there scouting around today. It's just west of the old AO.
Just need to verify it's BLM but so far, so good.
(Much bigger area too) :)
Chip

Awesome Job! cant wait to hear where it is and what its like
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: BlackDragon21 on February 14, 2012, 09:50:48 PM
Nice going Chip. Hope this new place is good to play at like hatfield if not even better.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 14, 2012, 09:58:55 PM
I love how so many of you are saying you're just going to feign ignorance about the law without thinking about the consequences of posting such things on a public forum on the internet. That's a great plan kids, have fun with that one. Get my sport banned, see if I care.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 14, 2012, 10:03:20 PM
Dude, see the above posts.
We're not holding a game there until we're SURE it's BLM land.
Go drink a yoo-hoo and chill.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Wolfz on February 14, 2012, 10:33:13 PM
Great job chip! Hope it works out. I know i love hatfields location (which is not super far from me)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 15, 2012, 12:20:57 AM
Dude, see the above posts.
We're not holding a game there until we're SURE it's BLM land.
Go drink a yoo-hoo and chill.
No, you've been perfectly reasonable about this. That wasn't directed at you at all. That was directed at everyone saying they're just gonna fuck da po-leece and play at Hatfield anyway, and the next time a cop rolls up and tells them they can't airsoft on state land they'll claim ignorance.

I WILL drink a Yoo-Hoo though, that sounds really good.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Red Devil on February 15, 2012, 05:43:44 AM
Fresnel,if you heard what the sheriff said. We were allowed to play on the other side of hatfield rd. We ate checking it out extensively before we say its a go.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 15, 2012, 05:54:24 AM
Fresnel,if you heard what the sheriff said. We were allowed to play on the other side of hatfield rd. We ate checking it out extensively before we say its a go.
Damn, guys, I'm not talking about that. You wanna move to a new spot that's not state land, cool. I'll probably be there too. I'm addressing the cowboys like Flick and Headhunter who want to keep playing on the field we just got kicked off of, and feign ignorance of the law when they get caught doing it.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: headhunter on February 15, 2012, 06:18:21 AM
Fresnel,if you heard what the sheriff said. We were allowed to play on the other side of hatfield rd. We ate checking it out extensively before we say its a go.
  @#!*% , guys, I'm not talking about that. You wanna move to a new spot that's not state land, cool. I'll probably be there too. I'm addressing the cowboys like Flick and Headhunter who want to keep playing on the field we just got kicked off of, and feign ignorance of the law when they get caught doing it.
no, its my opinion. im not going to really play there if we are not allowed to. i just think it is really  @#!*%  up that we have to do this because "its state land".and im not a cowboy.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: oscar pineda on February 15, 2012, 09:48:03 AM
I dont get it people say that have been playing at hatfield for years and not its a no go field..did the owner of fighter town had something to do with these since hes loosing the airsoft player and loosing money. since hatfield a free play field.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Archer on February 15, 2012, 09:57:35 AM
I dont get it people say that have been playing at hatfield for years and not its a no go field..did the owner of fighter town had something to do with these since hes loosing the airsoft player and loosing money. since hatfield a free play field.

oscar i doubt that, that guy makes some much money off paint baller's it isnt even funny. airsoft is a small drop compared to the big picture over there. btu that is a good thought.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Bambi-troopers on February 15, 2012, 10:08:38 AM
I dont get it people say that have been playing at hatfield for years and not its a no go field..did the owner of fighter town had something to do with these since hes loosing the airsoft player and loosing money. since hatfield a free play field.

Haha! That is exactly what my dad said as we left. Not really seriously. But i could see a company trying to do that. Lol
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 15, 2012, 10:22:44 AM
Fresnel,if you heard what the sheriff said. We were allowed to play on the other side of hatfield rd. We ate checking it out extensively before we say its a go.
  @#!*% , guys, I'm not talking about that. You wanna move to a new spot that's not state land, cool. I'll probably be there too. I'm addressing the cowboys like Flick and Headhunter who want to keep playing on the field we just got kicked off of, and feign ignorance of the law when they get caught doing it.
no, its my opinion. im not going to really play there if we are not allowed to. i just think it is really  @#!*%  up that we have to do this because "its state land".and im not a cowboy.
That's not what you said yesterday. You said "I will", not "I think we should". But I'm just going to kill it here before XavierMace tells us to take it to PMs and shakes the banhammer menacingly in our general direction.

Though if you thought I was actually calling you a real-life professional cowboy, you should re-read your English book with emphasis on the chapter on "metaphors".
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: longshot480 on February 15, 2012, 04:22:23 PM
you used to be able to get maps showing blm land and state land from the office..just get a map and figure out where the lines are drawn..then ask what permits are needed and you'll be good to go..noone can say anything about playing..
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 15, 2012, 05:29:36 PM
I'm addressing the cowboys like Flick and Headhunter who want to keep playing on the field we just got kicked off of
Hmm, I didn't mean to come across that way. My comments were from my experience playing Hatfield the last 12 years and occasionally having a LEO come by and question the activity, much like what happened this past Sunday. Happens to airsoft and paintball both. Play dies down for awhile and then picks back up. It's very cyclical and I believe it will continue to happen until progress resumes and the area is developed into tract housing.

To be clear, I understand the risks of playing renegade fields and I accept them. In this particular case, I accept that if I continue to play there, I may be ticketed and have to go to court and/or pay a fine. I accept that risk and those consequences, just like I accept the other risks associated, such as tire damage, injuries and so on. It is up to each person to conduct their own personal risk assessment as to when and where they play and proceed as they deem fit.

Now, this is very likely moot anyway as I've been working with Chip to verify that Hatfield West is indeed BLM land and viable for play. As he says above, stand by for details (and yes, we think everyone's going to like it!)

Peter


Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 15, 2012, 06:22:21 PM
Y'know Peter, might have to rename the new field to avoid confusion with the old one. Since you get Naming Rights, -might I suggest Flick's Field..
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: ThatGuy on February 15, 2012, 06:57:59 PM
The field shall be named Thatguy's field lol.



No wait how about thatguy's emporium  of airsoft awesomeness
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: SilentDragon on February 15, 2012, 07:12:55 PM
Yes, we are currently investigating other areas viable for use.  We are hoping to find something close by so that way we can keep our turnouts as good as they have been.  Lately, we have been getting quite a turnout.  One area we are looking into may also be much larger... so having a nice turnout wont seem too "crowded" on a small field. 

Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: PhoenixShadowCompany on February 15, 2012, 07:32:26 PM
I'm addressing the cowboys like Flick and Headhunter who want to keep playing on the field we just got kicked off of
Hmm, I didn't mean to come across that way. My comments were from my experience playing Hatfield the last 12 years and occasionally having a LEO come by and question the activity, much like what happened this past Sunday. Happens to airsoft and paintball both. Play dies down for awhile and then picks back up. It's very cyclical and I believe it will continue to happen until progress resumes and the area is developed into tract housing.



To be clear, I understand the risks of playing renegade fields and I accept them. In this particular case, I accept that if I continue to play there, I may be ticketed and have to go to court and/or pay a fine. I accept that risk and those consequences, just like I accept the other risks associated, such as tire damage, injuries and so on. It is up to each person to conduct their own personal risk assessment as to when and where they play and proceed as they deem fit.

Now, this is very likely moot anyway as I've been working with Chip to verify that Hatfield West is indeed BLM land and viable for play. As he says above, stand by for details (and yes, we think everyone's going to like it!)

Peter



when it comes down to it leo's are not the ones who over see state trust land.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Plauge on February 15, 2012, 08:06:11 PM
I'll try to find a location of it but it's called Atlantis it's like 15 20 mins away from hatfield
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 15, 2012, 08:40:45 PM
I'll try to find a location of it but it's called Atlantis it's like 15 20 mins away from hatfield
I wonder if that's the one that I know as Morgan City Wash:
 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Morgan+City+Wash,+Peoria,+AZ&sll=33.821424,-112.276273&sspn=0.033977,0.052314&vpsrc=0&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Morgan+City+Wash&t=h&z=15&iwloc=A (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Morgan+City+Wash,+Peoria,+AZ&sll=33.821424,-112.276273&sspn=0.033977,0.052314&vpsrc=0&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Morgan+City+Wash&t=h&z=15&iwloc=A)
I haven't been there in years....
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Plauge on February 15, 2012, 08:43:33 PM
I'll try to find a location of it but it's called Atlantis it's like 15 20 mins away from hatfield
I wonder if that's the one that I know as Morgan City Wash:
 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Morgan+City+Wash,+Peoria,+AZ&sll=33.821424,-112.276273&sspn=0.033977,0.052314&vpsrc=0&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Morgan+City+Wash&t=h&z=15&iwloc=A (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Morgan+City+Wash,+Peoria,+AZ&sll=33.821424,-112.276273&sspn=0.033977,0.052314&vpsrc=0&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Morgan+City+Wash&t=h&z=15&iwloc=A)
I haven't been there in years....


Is there remains off buildings
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 15, 2012, 08:44:31 PM
Y'know Peter, might have to rename the new field to avoid confusion with the old one. Since you get Naming Rights, -might I suggest Flick's Field..
That made me smile, thanks! I've scouted out a few fields over the years but never thought of that as a name. Usually name them for something nearby. That's where "Hatfield West" came from. It's, well, west of Hatfield.  :D

Seriously though, thank you. Let's save the memorial field names for when I'm dust and gone.  ;D

Peter
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 15, 2012, 08:52:00 PM
Is there remains off buildings
No, it's in the Agua Fria riverbed just south of the Carefree Highway. A mixture of high ground, low ground, "jungle" shrubbery and open spaces. Here're some photos from a paintball outing a few years ago: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaft/sets/1795050/with/84041204/. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaft/sets/1795050/with/84041204/.) Picture's worth a thousand words and all that...

The only place I ever went with buildings, at least on a renegade field, was down in Florence. I'd love to find something up in the NW valley.

Peter
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 15, 2012, 09:11:30 PM
Flick-when ya die? I ain't naming a field- "Dead Peter" ;)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 15, 2012, 09:33:39 PM
Flick-when ya die? I ain't naming a field- "Dead Peter" ;)
LOL!
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 15, 2012, 09:39:01 PM
The only place I ever went with buildings, at least on a renegade field, was down in Florence. I'd love to find something up in the NW valley.
Wait, I take that back - I had the opportunity to play paintball at an "abandoned" hotel on Van Buren off of the 51 about five years ago because one of our guys knew the land owner: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaft/sets/72157600386560159/with/562834980/. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaft/sets/72157600386560159/with/562834980/.)

Now that was fun!!
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Bambi-troopers on February 15, 2012, 09:41:11 PM
The only place I ever went with buildings, at least on a renegade field, was down in Florence. I'd love to find something up in the NW valley.
Wait, I take that back - I had the opportunity to play paintball at an "abandoned" hotel on Van Buren off of the 51 about five years ago because one of our guys knew the land owner: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaft/sets/72157600386560159/with/562834980/. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaft/sets/72157600386560159/with/562834980/.)

Now that was fun!!
My dad showed me video of that!!!! That looked sweet!
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: headhunter on February 15, 2012, 09:44:24 PM
i wish we hadn't lost the land.... but we will adapt and find other places.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Plauge on February 15, 2012, 09:45:11 PM
That would b awesome for airsoft like a zombie scenario game
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: The Squawkin' Chicken on February 15, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
The only place I ever went with buildings, at least on a renegade field, was down in Florence. I'd love to find something up in the NW valley.
Wait, I take that back - I had the opportunity to play paintball at an "abandoned" hotel on Van Buren off of the 51 about five years ago because one of our guys knew the land owner: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaft/sets/72157600386560159/with/562834980/. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaft/sets/72157600386560159/with/562834980/.)

Now that was fun!!

There are so many vacant buildings around here screaming for that sort of action. Gotta say, Flick, you know how to roll with some fun, resourceful characters.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: DMAN007 on February 15, 2012, 09:58:55 PM
Has anyone seen the abandoned fruit factory out along the hunt highway? My friend dated the grand daughter of the owner.
Before she sold it she allowed us to airsoft there once.
http://s805.photobucket.com/albums/yy336/DMAN_X007/The%20Factory/ (http://s805.photobucket.com/albums/yy336/DMAN_X007/The%20Factory/)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Note on February 15, 2012, 10:02:26 PM
Has anyone seen the abandoned fruit factory out along the hunt highway? My friend dated the grand daughter of the owner.
Before she sold it she allowed us to airsoft there once.
http://s805.photobucket.com/albums/yy336/DMAN_X007/The%20Factory/ (http://s805.photobucket.com/albums/yy336/DMAN_X007/The%20Factory/)

Can only imagine the fun :(
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: hieu66 on February 15, 2012, 10:37:44 PM
Spoked with three former phx pd cops today about state trust land. It is simple, if its a state trust land without any signs stating private and keep out. then it okay for us to walk on the property. to host and event on the state trust land all we need is a permit. I've included the link to the web site where we can purchase a group permit if we want to keep playing there. Botton line, if we want to keep playing there all we need to is to get a group permit.
Link to purchase permit:     http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/natural/recreation_permit.htm (http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/natural/recreation_permit.htm)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 15, 2012, 11:23:50 PM
Spoked with three former phx pd cops today about state trust land. It is simple, if its a state trust land without any signs stating private and keep out. then it okay for us to walk on the property. to host and event on the state trust land all we need is a permit. I've included the link to the web site where we can purchase a group permit if we want to keep playing there. Botton line, if we want to keep playing there all we need to is to get a group permit.
Link to purchase permit:     http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/natural/recreation_permit.htm (http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/natural/recreation_permit.htm)
Four posts down on the first page Flick posts a link to and excerpt from the AZ state trust land website FAQ where it specifically names airsoft and paintball as banned events on state trust land. This isn't about a permit, that won't help. It's simply illegal, no "if"s, "and"s, or "but"s.

That said, Morgan City Wash looks fun. Even if it doesn't become our new Hatfield, having the occasional game there sounds like a blast.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Shadow on February 16, 2012, 09:22:31 AM
Has anyone seen the abandoned fruit factory out along the hunt highway? My friend dated the grand daughter of the owner.
Before she sold it she allowed us to airsoft there once.
http://s805.photobucket.com/albums/yy336/DMAN_X007/The%20Factory/ (http://s805.photobucket.com/albums/yy336/DMAN_X007/The%20Factory/)

I made contact with the owner of this facility about a year ago and discussed using it as a field for a small group.  There's no way.  She wanted to run it as a business or get an insurance contract.  Don't play there.  MSCO is enforcing trespassing laws on the property.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Huckleberry on February 16, 2012, 02:27:23 PM
Freznel, don't be so anxious to knuckle under. First a preface, I am a senior criminal defense attorney, and have handled every case from Possession of Marijuanna (POM) to 1st Degree Murder.

Just because the government has over-reached in their law writing, doesn't mean these things stand up in court. There are many unenforced laws on the books in Arizona and every other state. If we get a "permit" to waive at any law enforcement officer who shows up, 99 out of 100 will just go away when they assess us as "harmless". Harmless with permit pushes that to within decimal points of 100%. In all likelihood, the exemption of paintball and airsoft, is so that people don't try to play airsoft up on Squaw Peak, or in one of the State Parks in the urban areas. It scares the hikers.

Now, should we happen to draw "Officer Asshat", who not only has a "hate on" for airsofters, but has carefully researched state land use permits, then he may (horrors) write us a ticket. At that point we can go to the courthouse to discuss the issue with a judge. I'd be happy to represent us at no charge, it's my sport too. With the permit in hand, and my explanation that we all use bio-bb's, so there isn't even any litter, the judge will likely dismiss the ticket. If we get a bad judge, the worst thing that happens is we pay a tiny bit of money into the state's general revenue fund. Think of it as a use tax.

If we want to keep using Hatfield, there is absolutely no reason to give up so easily.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: punkerr1313 on February 16, 2012, 03:35:22 PM
I played once with about 10 friends at the huge building that used to be owned by Motorola. My friend's stepdad's company basically bought it as an investment. That was so much fun. 500,000 square feet of play if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 17, 2012, 04:21:50 PM
<content deleted for brevity>
I'd be happy to represent us at no charge, it's my sport too. With the permit in hand, and my explanation that we all use bio-bb's, so there isn't even any litter, the judge will likely dismiss the ticket. If we get a bad judge, the worst thing that happens is we pay a tiny bit of money into the state's general revenue fund. Think of it as a use tax.

If we want to keep using Hatfield, there is absolutely no reason to give up so easily.
Well said, sir, well said. Thank you.

Peter
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Kileyhaz on February 17, 2012, 04:50:10 PM
Freznel, don't be so anxious to knuckle under. First a preface, I am a senior criminal defense attorney, and have handled every case from Possession of Marijuanna (POM) to 1st Degree Murder.

Just because the government has over-reached in their law writing, doesn't mean these things stand up in court. There are many unenforced laws on the books in Arizona and every other state. If we get a "permit" to waive at any law enforcement officer who shows up, 99 out of 100 will just go away when they assess us as "harmless". Harmless with permit pushes that to within decimal points of 100%. In all likelihood, the exemption of paintball and airsoft, is so that people don't try to play airsoft up on Squaw Peak, or in one of the State Parks in the urban areas. It scares the hikers.

Now, should we happen to draw "Officer Asshat", who not only has a "hate on" for airsofters, but has carefully researched state land use permits, then he may (horrors) write us a ticket. At that point we can go to the courthouse to discuss the issue with a judge. I'd be happy to represent us at no charge, it's my sport too. With the permit in hand, and my explanation that we all use bio-bb's, so there isn't even any litter, the judge will likely dismiss the ticket. If we get a bad judge, the worst thing that happens is we pay a tiny bit of money into the state's general revenue fund. Think of it as a use tax.

If we want to keep using Hatfield, there is absolutely no reason to give up so easily.

So the moral of the story is its OK to 'bend' (read: break) the law as long as we can convince a judge that what is written in the state trust land public information site, verbatim, doesn't apply to us because we purchased a permit (under false pretense) but used bio bb's?  No disrespect intended but its attitude like these that contribute to us being a stones throw away from having additional legislature level at our sport.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 17, 2012, 04:55:26 PM
Freznel, don't be so anxious to knuckle under. First a preface, I am a senior criminal defense attorney, and have handled every case from Possession of Marijuanna (POM) to 1st Degree Murder.

Just because the government has over-reached in their law writing, doesn't mean these things stand up in court. There are many unenforced laws on the books in Arizona and every other state. If we get a "permit" to waive at any law enforcement officer who shows up, 99 out of 100 will just go away when they assess us as "harmless". Harmless with permit pushes that to within decimal points of 100%. In all likelihood, the exemption of paintball and airsoft, is so that people don't try to play airsoft up on Squaw Peak, or in one of the State Parks in the urban areas. It scares the hikers.

Now, should we happen to draw "Officer Asshat", who not only has a "hate on" for airsofters, but has carefully researched state land use permits, then he may (horrors) write us a ticket. At that point we can go to the courthouse to discuss the issue with a judge. I'd be happy to represent us at no charge, it's my sport too. With the permit in hand, and my explanation that we all use bio-bb's, so there isn't even any litter, the judge will likely dismiss the ticket. If we get a bad judge, the worst thing that happens is we pay a tiny bit of money into the state's general revenue fund. Think of it as a use tax.

If we want to keep using Hatfield, there is absolutely no reason to give up so easily.
First of all, allow me to state my inherent distrust of anyone who pops up in the middle of an internet conversation claiming to be an expert in whatever field best suits the current topic. On the internet, anybody can be an expert. I should know, I have a Ph.D in Internetology and a Master's in Claiming To Be An Expert.

Second, I find it absolutely hilarious that a criminal defense attorney is recommending that forty- or fifty-some people break the law every week. I'm sure you're familiar with the term 'conflict of interest'?

EDIT: Also, while we're on the topic of conflicts of interest, how much are you willing to bet that everyone at Hatfield games uses Bios?
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: The Squawkin' Chicken on February 17, 2012, 08:12:32 PM
Second, I find it absolutely hilarious that a criminal defense attorney is recommending that forty- or fifty-some people break the law every week. I'm sure you're familiar with the term 'conflict of interest'?


I'm certain Huckelberry is familiar with the term, though you haven't used it in a way that's relevant to his profession. I don't see how what he suggests is a conflict of interest. And he worded this carefully, making me less likely to doubt his credentials.

I'd just as soon find new areas on both sides of the valley. Hatfield is good for the price, of course. But if I'm gonna go that far, I may as well keep driving 'till I hit FighterTown.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: ThatGuy on February 17, 2012, 09:07:39 PM
My wife has ph DD's lol
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Huckleberry on February 17, 2012, 09:52:25 PM
Well, some of you have met me in person at games, I come with my son, and use a FAL. Yes, I am an expert, if you show up at Hatfield, I'll be happy to give you my card.

As I noted, there are frequent instances where the law over-reaches. If you are so persnickity, you'd best sell any gas-guns you have. Under Arizona law, any gun device that operates off of "expanding gas" to expel a projectile, is a "firearm", and if you shoot another person with it, you can be charged with "aggravated assault, a dangerous offense". This carries a minimum sentence of 5 years in prison. Better quit playing paintball too, just to be safe. Under Arizona statutes getting an abortion is illegal as well, with a sentencing range from 1 to 5 years. Also, don't glue two toothpicks together connected by a piece of dental floss. Under Arizona statutes, that would qualify as "nunchuks", and would be a prohibited weapon in the same class as a machine gun or rocket launcher.
My point is that just because you looked up a "rule" doesn't mean you understand it the way it is used in the real world. The law is much more undefined than most people realize. Since people facing the death penalty trust my advice and judgement, perhaps you shouldn't be so hasty to rather rely on your "internet search". I'm offering to help out here, free. If you'd rather roll over and submit to any show of authority, then I take it you haven't read your history books.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 17, 2012, 09:58:29 PM
New spot coming, buy some bios, don't worry.
PS, I break laws once in awhile, like most Free Men, -but don't post it on the Internet (specifics) so its used against myself at a later time. YMMV.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Bambi-troopers on February 17, 2012, 10:07:51 PM
huck, i completly agree with you almost 100% its silly people get so picky on laws to fallow. Some of them probly speed with knowin that its a no no. Yet, they do it anyway. They complain to much... Yea, i get it about the state trust land, and them wanting to play legal but its just gets annoying. If they spent half the time looking for a great area to play at other than complain where we play at is illegal... We could have a cool field. Sooo... Yea. Im with the cool guys on this one. Lol. Hopefully the new area checks out to be safe to play on so that nobody complains. I went there yesterday and it was SWEET!!! cross our fingers and hope its good so we can play there without mommy telling us we shouldnt be there.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Huckleberry on February 17, 2012, 10:16:08 PM
Awesome news Bambi-Troop. Any chance we can have a "Hatfield West" game up and running this Sunday? My son is finally available to go again, and I was hating to have to break it to him that we were "shut down" on his one free Sunday.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 17, 2012, 10:18:36 PM
We are confirming it is indeed BLM. Buy some bios and get ready!
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 17, 2012, 10:22:41 PM
Saguaro is playing Fightertown this Sunday. Following Sunday doubtful, and the one after that we'll be at the Sandbox.
Sorry Huckleberry, but it'll happen soon.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Bambi-troopers on February 17, 2012, 10:27:44 PM
Screw it. Ill host a game next sunday, if anyone shows...then cool but if not, ill explore. Ill set it up tomarow.

Im pumped for a game there!  8)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: PhoenixShadowCompany on February 17, 2012, 10:29:34 PM


As I noted, there are frequent instances where the law over-reaches. If you are so persnickity, you'd best sell any gas-guns you have. Under Arizona law, any gun device that operates off of "expanding gas" to expel a projectile, is a "firearm", and if you shoot another person with it, you can be charged with "aggravated assault, a dangerous offense". This carries a minimum sentence of 5 years in prison. Better quit playing paintball too, just to be safe. Under Arizona statutes getting an abortion is illegal as well, with a sentencing range from 1 to 5 years.

We did some research on this one as well as talking to  some people at the court house and talking to gearbox. This statement is not true in the state of Arizona however it does apply in California and about 5 other states
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Huckleberry on February 17, 2012, 10:31:07 PM
Blast. Well, lets see. If I skip lunch Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, I can afford to drive out and pay for play, at fighter town.... :)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 17, 2012, 10:33:35 PM
Too much pro bono, bubbie.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Huckleberry on February 17, 2012, 10:34:28 PM
Oh yes, it absolutely is true. I've defended multiple people charged with "Armed Robbery, a Dangerous Offense" because they robbed somebody with a "BB" gun. The courts relied on the definition of expanding gas projectile to establish the "dangerous" element. Also, I know the guys at Gearbox well. They will not contradict me. I don't know who you talked to at the courthouse, but I'll bet they aren't a member of the Arizona State Bar. One of my "mentees" (a younger lawyer) once had a case where his client was charged with Agg. Asslt. Dangerous, for merely pointing a paintball gun at somebody. Yes, that means he was charged by the county attorney with that felony. We managed to get it resolved without that result, but not before he went through hell.

Arizona defines "firearm", in the criminal code as, "...any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, or other weapon which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition."

SO. if anybody ever decides to charge you, then guess what? You get to go to court and argue your case before a judge. (Just as I suggested we do regarding permits and state trust land). Hopefully you will have an experienced lawyer, and the judge lets common sense prevail. If not, then I understand the food at DOC isn't too bad these days.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 17, 2012, 11:09:22 PM
We are confirming it is indeed BLM. Buy some bios and get ready!
Chip,

I was going to PM you but I think everyone's interested so rather than wait:

Yes, Hatfield West is on BLM land. Using http://sco.az.gov/website/parcels/viewer.htm (http://sco.az.gov/website/parcels/viewer.htm) as the map of record and my GPS, I've verified that the entire section we are looking at is BLM land. It does have private and State Trust land around it, so we'll need to be careful of boundaries, but overall there's plenty of room.

Sorry we didn't meet up to walk the field Thursday evening. Shall we try again over the weekend?

All - Once we're done figuring things out (parking, primarily), we'll post the full details. Per Jacob's post above, we'll tentatively plan for Sunday the 26th.

Thanks,

Peter
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 17, 2012, 11:16:34 PM
Yes. Sorry Peter, I was unable to call Thursday. Let me say I appreciate all your help.
Okay, why don't we stop worrying about State trust land and usless permits and go play! Buy bios, shoot people, be happy.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 17, 2012, 11:38:20 PM
Okay, why don't we stop worrying about State trust land and usless permits and go play! Buy bios, shoot people, be happy.
Works for me.

For those that are curious: http://g.co/maps/5by8t (http://g.co/maps/5by8t)
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Mooncruiser on February 17, 2012, 11:51:28 PM
High-quality Google Map, pleh.
Note that we are using the area SOUTH of Hatfield rd as there is a house (not close, but being careful) off-field to the north.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Flick on February 18, 2012, 12:03:18 AM
High-quality Google Map, pleh.
Note that we are using the area SOUTH of Hatfield rd as there is a house (not close, but being careful) off-field to the north.
The houses on the west north of the road are up the cliff quite a bit, aren't they? Eh, we'll figure it out when we meet up. BLM goes north and south of the road so it's all good. PM or call me. Thanks!
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 18, 2012, 01:53:08 AM
If they spent half the time looking for a great area to play at other than complain where we play at is illegal... We could have a cool field.
You guys don't want to play out where I am. Great areas for games, but not worth the drive. Spartan'd love it, I'm right in his backyard, but the rest of you would rather save the extra gas money and use it to get into Fightertown, because I guarantee it's closer. Which is also the same reason I can't afford to haul out to Hatfield every day just to poke around. You live right down the street, you're poking around... no point in me going too. But like I said, you guys find a new Hatfield, I'll show up.

EDIT: Also, for the record, if I speed it's my ass on the line, and only my ass. If you guys go out airsofting in a place you know is illegal to do so, you give the whole community a bad name. If I get myself in trouble it's one thing, if I get other people in trouble for things that I did and they didn't, that's bullshit.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 18, 2012, 01:59:03 AM
It does have private and State Trust land around it, so we'll need to be careful of boundaries, but overall there's plenty of room.
Maybe we should put up flags or something, just so we don't have any accidents. There's been a few games at the old Hatfield AO where people went WAY outside the normal AO, and we don't want someone to accidentally circle onto private land. Safety first and all.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Fresnel on February 18, 2012, 02:04:17 AM
Arizona defines "firearm", in the criminal code as, "...any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, or other weapon which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition."
Here's what I'm finding:
Quote
"Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.
[source] (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03101.htm) ARS 13-3101

So where are you getting that from? No offense meant, but an appeal to authority is only as good as the evidence to back it up.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Wolfz on February 18, 2012, 02:25:42 AM
Well, with the new hatfield pretty much ready, I do believe it is time for me to go out and buy some bio bbs. And plenty of them too, as I always end up sharing my supply with my guests.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Kileyhaz on February 18, 2012, 05:58:15 AM

EDIT: Also, for the record, if I speed it's my ass on the line, and only my ass. If you guys go out airsofting in a place you know is illegal to do so, you give the whole community a bad name. If I get myself in trouble it's one thing, if I get other people in trouble for things that I did and they didn't, that's bullshit.
QTF

This is also my point.  If anyone wants to go off and and rob the QT store with a fake bomb strapped to their chest and then argue with the judge about it not being a real explosive, be my guest.  Just don't do it with an airsoft gun or knowingly violate the law while acting as a member of this community.  It's a real quick way to find yourself outside of any local organized communities I assure you.

Good luck with the new area!  Authorized or unmarked private property, county land, or BLM is the way to go.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: PhoenixShadowCompany on February 18, 2012, 03:50:40 PM
Oh yes, it absolutely is true. I've defended multiple people charged with "Armed Robbery, a Dangerous Offense" because they robbed somebody with a "BB" gun. The courts relied on the definition of expanding gas projectile to establish the "dangerous" element. Also, I know the guys at Gearbox well. They will not contradict me.


We were just down there today as well as Olddog halfbreed and some one from saguaro   Ron said he never said gas airsoft guns are considered firearms and that you were wrong about saying they were
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: Huckleberry on February 18, 2012, 07:27:15 PM
Believe what you wish, I gave you the legal definition from the 2003,  ARS book  have at home, my current one is at the office. ARS13_105 subsection 17. I did a trial last year in Superior Court, where this was an element, and the poor kid was innocent. If you want to get your legal advice from shopkeepers, security gaurds, and baseball coaches, be my guest. You can get them to come argue your case. The judge and the DCA will enjoy it.

You can lead a horse to water... ::) I'm not wasting any more of my time with this.
Title: Re: AZ trust Land & permits
Post by: PhoenixShadowCompany on February 18, 2012, 07:31:45 PM
Believe what you wish, I gave you the legal definition from the 2003,  ARS book  have at home, my current one is at the office. If you want to get your legal advice from shopkeepers, security gaurds, and baseball coaches, be my guest. You can get them to come argue your case. The judge and the DCA will enjoy it.

You can lead a horse to water... ::)

So your taking back your statement from before about Ron agreeing i take it     last i checked Fresnel quoted it also Ron pulled up all the laws up today

Edit.....  the law on expanding gas only implies if the expansion is cause by ignition and or a chemical reaction