Airsoft Arizona

Airsoft Hardware => Gas Powered Guns => Topic started by: HavHav on April 02, 2004, 08:08:10 PM

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Post by: HavHav on April 02, 2004, 08:08:10 PM: There are many things that can effect the preformance of a BB. Just like wind, elevation, temperature (effects GBB's more than BB's) etc effects a real bullet, it would have the same effect, usually more due to a BB's lighter weight, as a real bullet.

I would think that it would fall shorter than on a less humid day. Then again, I could be, and probably am, wrong.
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Post by: Spartigusxcv on April 02, 2004, 08:13:28 PM: Sounds plausible to me.
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Post by: azsarge on April 02, 2004, 09:53:29 PM: Higher humidity means there is more moisture in the air (more or less).

One would think that would decrease fps, as the bb's must force it's way through.

HMMM
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Post by: Raith on April 02, 2004, 10:02:50 PM: I would think the effects would be negligable, but who knows*.

*I'm sure someone does [:P]
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Post by: falconflyer11 on April 02, 2004, 10:07:06 PM: idk about moisture but I know that lower temps can help a bb travel further because the air is denser meaning more air passing over the bb, and if you add backspin, the air on top is moving faster meaning less pressure and more lift.
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Post by: Screwloose on April 02, 2004, 10:09:11 PM: Then we add wind and all our summations are shot to hell. . .
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Post by: azsarge on April 02, 2004, 10:14:02 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by falconflyer11
 idk about moisture but I know that lower temps can help a bb travel further because the air is denser meaning more air passing over the bb, and if you add backspin, the air on top is moving faster meaning less pressure and more lift.
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Umm, BB's aren't wings.

The greater ammount of matter that the bb encounters on it's flightpath to Sparties goggle lens, the slower it will go. Doesn't matter if that's air, water, Screwlooses "brown gas", etc.

Now, I'm not certain here, so I refuse to get too heated. But this stuff makes sense to me.

Any pilots that disagree?
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Post by: Raith on April 02, 2004, 10:15:02 PM: I figure that if I can shoot someone at just the right moment, with the Earth spinning in the correct direction, around the Sun in the correct direction, the Solar system moving around the center of the galaxy in the correct direction all at once, I may be able to propel my BBs to relativistic speeds!

Its all moot. Worry more about aiming and such. [:P]
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Post by: Spartigusxcv on April 03, 2004, 09:08:44 PM: Actually i did a bit of research and i'm not entirely sure but, actually humidity should make the bb travel a bit faster, well unless it's 100%. Because the moisture replaces the air and therefore the stuff we end up breathing is thinner. It just feels thicker becuase it tends to condence on anything warmer than it's surroundings... for example the bb, but then again if you fired it from a GBB using green gas it would be colder becuase of the liquid that is released from the mag, which then evaporates creates tons of pressure and also becomes very cold, so yeah theoretically the bb should travel faster. At a neglible amount though so it really doesn't make that big of a difference. I was just thinking about it.
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Post by: HavHav on April 03, 2004, 09:11:52 PM: Wanna help me with my science home work?
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Post by: yellowmonkey on April 03, 2004, 10:14:40 PM: The humidity, even as a vapor is still denser than the Nitrogen that makes up the atomsphere (for the most part). So whatever aerofoil effects the spinning bb's have is probably about the same as in less humidified air, but there is more friction to begin with, so the bb's should not go as far as they would in a less dense atmosphere.
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Post by: azsarge on April 03, 2004, 11:34:49 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Spartigusxcv
 Actually i did a bit of research and i'm not entirely sure but, actually humidity should make the bb travel a bit faster, well unless it's 100%. Because the moisture replaces the air and therefore the stuff we end up breathing is thinner. It just feels thicker becuase it tends to condence on anything warmer than it's surroundings... for example the bb, but then again if you fired it from a GBB using green gas it would be colder becuase of the liquid that is released from the mag, which then evaporates creates tons of pressure and also becomes very cold, so yeah theoretically the bb should travel faster. At a neglible amount though so it really doesn't make that big of a difference. I was just thinking about it.
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I dunno bro, soounds like you were just speculating like the rest of us. Sure, you throw out some interesting points in your post, but keep in mind the differences in physics for a smaller object (BB) as compared to conventional changes in atmosphereic conditions.

Colder BB from coming in contact with green gas? Not likely. And according to your theory, the water would condense on the BB, attaching itself in the absense of water vapor. Now HOW would a bb laden with water droplets travel faster than a dry BB?

Let's save our thoughts for the next game, when we do not have the luxury of looking up our answers on google. Cool?
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Post by: Basher on April 04, 2004, 12:52:14 PM: AZSarge,

When it comes to aircraft, the cooler air does make for better performance, purely because the air is more dense, and the wings have more to "grab." Hot days reduce performance for the same reasons. My dad used to fly, and he seems to think that humid air degrades performance.

BB's do actually create lift when they have some backspin on them. The backwards rotation of the BB causes the air around the BB to change in pressure, creating a low pressure area above and a high pressure area below the BB. That's why hop-up works.
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Post by: Screwloose on April 04, 2004, 05:36:43 PM: So is someone going to take the initiative and try to prove their theories, or are we just gonna chat it to death?

Science has a funny way of making everyone look stupid.

Oh and "Brown Gas" comes from you meat eaters. Mine's all Green now. [;)]
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Post by: SHIFTY1944 on April 04, 2004, 08:12:48 PM: Hey its just airsoft! who friggin' cares!
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Post by: azsarge on April 04, 2004, 10:59:10 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SHIFTY1944
 Hey its just airsoft! who friggin' cares!
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Hallelujah![8D]

I'm over it.

edit: Basher, you either know a hell of a lot about the topic at hand, or you know enough to come up with some good BS. [:D]

Either way, good show.

I'm not going to refute anything that has been said here, I simply do not know the right answer. This is, however one of the best discussions we have had, about which not many of us have anything to say but opinion. This is the stuff the "General Discussion" area is made of![8D]
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Post by: -MAD- SARGE on April 05, 2004, 12:58:25 PM: Some days if the weather was too hot the B24 with a full load of fuel could not take off at all, since not enough lift could be created to over come the load. That's something that most people wouldnt think about when they get into an airplane, but I hope my pilot does. So, in all Basher is correct about the densitys of air when hot and cold.
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Post by: Basher on April 05, 2004, 09:12:04 PM: AZSarge,

Actually, it's basic physics (a subject I realize is not everyone's cup of tea). By giving the BB some back spin while it's in forward motion, the speed of the BB combined with the fact that the BB is spinning "forward" on the bottom half would mean that the air being "pushed" forward underneath the BB is fighting the air moving past it due to forward motion. The equates to a percieved slower airflow over the bottom of the BB.

On the other hand, the spin imparted on the BB on the TOP half is being "pushed rearward" (you may have to picture a BB in your mind to get any of this). Thus, when combined with the BB's forward flight, you get a faster moving section of air on top of the BB, creating a low pressure area. And hence, it acts somewhat like an airfoil.

This is similar in concept to a Helicopters blades while in forward flight. Picture looking down at a helicopter from directly over the rotors. Now, make the blades spin counter-clockwise. When the chopper is moving forward, the right side of the rotor would be spinning in the direction of flight. This combined with the forward motion means that the right side blades are spinning faster (in effect) that the left rotors. And the left rotors are traveling slower. This may help you visualize the BB (looking down on the rotors is the same as looking at the BB from the side).

[:D] I hope I didn't confuse anyone too badly.
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Post by: KamikazeSM on April 05, 2004, 11:14:09 PM: Actually its even more exaggerated with helicopters: it causes disproportionate lift and if you're not careful, can cause it to flip. Any helicopter pilots out there? I forget the term, but my dad used to recite a lot of his helicopter training information to me to learn it better.
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Post by: azsarge on April 06, 2004, 12:02:43 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by KamikazeSM
 Actually its even more exaggerated with helicopters: it causes disproportionate lift and if you're not careful, can cause it to flip. Any helicopter pilots out there? I forget the term, but my dad used to recite a lot of his helicopter training information to me to learn it better.
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Your dad was/is a helo driver? Cool![8D]

Basher, I am more than familiar with Bernoulli's Principle (aka "Bernoulli Effect"). I simply disagree wiht how it relates to a 6mm airsoft BB. I simply don't think the effect in this case would be anything worth noting.

It's like staring at the sun! [8D]
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Post by: KamikazeSM on April 06, 2004, 01:28:32 AM: It's the reason that hop up does work though. I don't think the effects of hop up are negligible in any capacity. Same thing for baseball pitches. sinkers have topspin, etc. Of course, the effects are a little more exaggerated by the stitches. As far as weather goes, don't know bout that...

Yeah, my dad was on and off getting helo trained and now he's getting serious about it. I'm still workin on the helo insertion w/ him, but I gotta find a suitable game when I'm back in town. Only problem is that summer is so dang hot and the helo he has access to right now can barely provide enough lift for the both of us on a hot day, let alone w/ my gear.
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Post by: azsarge on April 06, 2004, 02:18:31 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by KamikazeSM
 It's the reason that hop up does work though. I don't think the effects of hop up are negligible in any capacity. Same thing for baseball pitches. sinkers have topspin, etc. Of course, the effects are a little more exaggerated by the stitches. As far as weather goes, don't know bout that...

Yeah, my dad was on and off getting helo trained and now he's getting serious about it. I'm still workin on the helo insertion w/ him, but I gotta find a suitable game when I'm back in town. Only problem is that summer is so dang hot and the helo he has access to right now can barely provide enough lift for the both of us on a hot day, let alone w/ my gear.
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Don't tell me it's a [gag] Robinson!
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Post by: KamikazeSM on April 06, 2004, 03:45:21 AM: Nope. It's a schweizer.
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Post by: azsarge on April 06, 2004, 10:04:30 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by KamikazeSM
 Nope. It's a schweizer.
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AAAAH!

My father told me to never get in any helo that wasn't made by Bell or Sikorsky. This was back in the day, so Boeing is ok now, too.[8D]
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Post by: TheRev on April 06, 2004, 12:06:36 PM: It's called "P" Factor. The disproportionate lift is created by the forward moving blade while the rearward moving blade is, in effect, stalling. The movement of the helo has a tendancy to want to move (or tilt) in the direction of the stall. All prop driven aircraft have to deal with this effect. In a single engine prop plane (such as a Cessna), the pilot has to correct for this factor on take-off by adding some right rudder to keep the plane on center. It's very elementary flight physics (advancing blade = lift, retreating blade = stall). "P" factor...

You WILL be tested on this!

TheRev
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Post by: Spartigusxcv on April 06, 2004, 04:25:03 PM: Wow who would have ever thought that a simple idea would cause such a discussion. This is really interesting stuff, I'm learning more on these forums than I am in school haha.
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Post by: azsarge on April 07, 2004, 12:07:43 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Spartigusxcv
 Wow who would have ever thought that a simple idea would cause such a discussion. This is really interesting stuff, I'm learning more on these forums than I am in school haha.
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As interesting as all of this is, I wouldn't go around spewing this info as truth until you cross-check it. Especially what I said[:P]
Title: Just a thought...
Post by: Spartigusxcv on April 02, 2004, 08:00:06 PM: I was thinking today, and as those of you living in az know there was a pretty big storm about us. And a thought came to me does humidity lower fps? and if so how much, i just figured that if the air was thicker becuase of it the bb wouldn't travel as easily as if it were really dry (like it usually is). Oh well just curious. If anybody would care to enlighten me that would be great.