Vanguard Surrendering

[Ocean]

Now I know there is always a problem at Vanguard about people not surrendering and just straight shooting you point blank. That's now what this thread is about.

Us Refs have been arguing about this for awhile and some of us do it in a different way, but I thought it would be best to ask you players.
Now, the way we run it as of now is; If you walk up to a group of (Lets say 6) players and surrender them all by saying "Surrender all of you!" that is a no go. I agree with that. But if you go up to them and say "Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender" then that should count. But for us we say it doesn't count and I don't particularly agree with that. Other Refs say that even if their backs are turned that it doesn't count.
I say that if you walk up to 6 people and surrender each of them individually before they, 1) Shoot or 2) Call surrender on you before you call it on them; it should count. In a real world situation if you walk up to 6 terrorists and shoot them before they shoot you, then you are alive and they are dead. Is this not the same situation?
What do you guys think? Do you think that you should only be able to surrender one person in a group or surrender the whole group as long as you call surrender on each individual player?

Please let me know guys this would really help me out a lot.
In no way shape or form is this a "Bash the Vanguard Ref" thread! All I want is your opinion on this matter so we can maybe change something around.

[PhoenixShadowCompany]

Now I know there is always a problem at Vanguard about people not surrendering and just straight shooting you point blank. That's now what this thread is about.

Us Refs have been arguing about this for awhile and some of us do it in a different way, but I thought it would be best to ask you players.
Now, the way we run it as of now is; If you walk up to a group of (Lets say 6) players and surrender them all by saying "Surrender all of you!" that is a no go. I agree with that. But if you go up to them and say "Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender" then that should count. But for us we say it doesn't count and I don't particularly agree with that. Other Refs say that even if their backs are turned that it doesn't count.
I say that if you walk up to 6 people and surrender each of them individually before they, 1) Shoot or 2) Call surrender on you before you call it on them; it should count. In a real world situation if you walk up to 6 terrorists and shoot them before they shoot you, then you are alive and they are dead. Is this not the same situation?
What do you guys think? Do you think that you should only be able to surrender one person in a group or surrender the whole group as long as you call surrender on each individual player?

Please let me know guys this would really help me out a lot.
In no way shape or form is this a "Bash the Vanguard Ref" thread! All I want is your opinion on this matter so we can maybe change something around.

Think of it this way. In a reel situation if someone was to say to me surrender I wouldn't, Ide shoot. on that same level if 1 person try's to surrender 6 he him self is going to get shot. the surrender rule 9 times out of 10 in airsoft doesn't work. Its some what of a courteous type act however as stated before it doesn't work. Trying to enforce it is going to do nothing but cause more problems.  This is just PSC's 2 cents

[Ocean]

Now I know there is always a problem at Vanguard about people not surrendering and just straight shooting you point blank. That's now what this thread is about.

Us Refs have been arguing about this for awhile and some of us do it in a different way, but I thought it would be best to ask you players.
Now, the way we run it as of now is; If you walk up to a group of (Lets say 6) players and surrender them all by saying "Surrender all of you!" that is a no go. I agree with that. But if you go up to them and say "Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender" then that should count. But for us we say it doesn't count and I don't particularly agree with that. Other Refs say that even if their backs are turned that it doesn't count.
I say that if you walk up to 6 people and surrender each of them individually before they, 1) Shoot or 2) Call surrender on you before you call it on them; it should count. In a real world situation if you walk up to 6 terrorists and shoot them before they shoot you, then you are alive and they are dead. Is this not the same situation?
What do you guys think? Do you think that you should only be able to surrender one person in a group or surrender the whole group as long as you call surrender on each individual player?

Please let me know guys this would really help me out a lot.
In no way shape or form is this a "Bash the Vanguard Ref" thread! All I want is your opinion on this matter so we can maybe change something around.

Think of it this way. In a reel situation if someone was to say to me surrender I wouldn't, Ide shoot. on that same level if 1 person try's to surrender 6 he him self is going to get shot. the surrender rule 9 times out of 10 in airsoft doesn't work. Its some what of a courteous type act however as stated before it doesn't work. Trying to enforce it is going to do nothing but cause more problems.  This is just PSC's 2 cents

I understand where you are coming from. But at Vanguard surrender rule is mandatory it is not optional. If a player does not honor the surrender rule then action is taken. This is strictly for Vanguard Surrenders not outdoors. In outdoors I would do exactly what you said.

[PhoenixShadowCompany]

Now I know there is always a problem at Vanguard about people not surrendering and just straight shooting you point blank. That's now what this thread is about.

Us Refs have been arguing about this for awhile and some of us do it in a different way, but I thought it would be best to ask you players.
Now, the way we run it as of now is; If you walk up to a group of (Lets say 6) players and surrender them all by saying "Surrender all of you!" that is a no go. I agree with that. But if you go up to them and say "Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender, Surrender" then that should count. But for us we say it doesn't count and I don't particularly agree with that. Other Refs say that even if their backs are turned that it doesn't count.
I say that if you walk up to 6 people and surrender each of them individually before they, 1) Shoot or 2) Call surrender on you before you call it on them; it should count. In a real world situation if you walk up to 6 terrorists and shoot them before they shoot you, then you are alive and they are dead. Is this not the same situation?
What do you guys think? Do you think that you should only be able to surrender one person in a group or surrender the whole group as long as you call surrender on each individual player?

Please let me know guys this would really help me out a lot.
In no way shape or form is this a "Bash the Vanguard Ref" thread! All I want is your opinion on this matter so we can maybe change something around.

Think of it this way. In a reel situation if someone was to say to me surrender I wouldn't, Ide shoot. on that same level if 1 person try's to surrender 6 he him self is going to get shot. the surrender rule 9 times out of 10 in airsoft doesn't work. Its some what of a courteous type act however as stated before it doesn't work. Trying to enforce it is going to do nothing but cause more problems.  This is just PSC's 2 cents

I understand where you are coming from. But at Vanguard surrender rule is mandatory it is not optional. If a player does not honor the surrender rule then action is taken. This is strictly for Vanguard Surrenders not outdoors. In outdoors I would do exactly what you said.

If a surrender rule is mandatory  maybe refine the rules on how the surrender works 1 man simply isn't going to surrender 6 without getting shot him self

[INFIDEL]

i feel like your missing the point of the "surrender" here. its not in terms asking them to surrender or "die". the surrender is taking the place of shooting them. rather than point blanking them all you say "surrender" to each and it acts like you shot them.

I say if you can say surrender to each before they "shoot" back you got them. if you say surrender to 2 before you get killed then you got 2 out of 6. my 2 cents.

[DMAN007]

I'd say change it from "surrender" to "bang bang". That way you basically state you shot them without actually shooting them.

[Ocean]

i feel like your missing the point of the "surrender" here. its not in terms asking them to surrender or "die". the surrender is taking the place of shooting them. rather than point blanking them all you say "surrender" to each and it acts like you shot them.

I say if you can say surrender to each before they "shoot" back you got them. if you say surrender to 2 before you get killed then you got 2 out of 6. my 2 cents.

Infidel has the right idea. PSC, what if you do end up surrendering 6 people before they call it on your or shoot you? I've done it many many many times before it's diffidently possible. For those of you who have played with me at Vanguard, I say surrender more than I shoot because I'm always up in the enemies faces.

[Ocean]

I'd say change it from a surrender rule to a "bang bang" rule. That way you basically state you shot them without actually shooting them.

That's maybe a good idea. I do tend to say when I explain the rules that you must Surrender or say something that lets them know that they are dead, such as "Bang Bang, You're dead, ECT." But most people do say Surrender.

[TheUNIT]

Airsoft Bang Kill, Mercy Kill, Surrender Rule
^This can help.

[Uchiha Itachi]

You're over thinking the entire situation.....

The surrender/bang bang rule is used when ONE person has clear advantage over another PERSON. This means that it can only be used when the attacker can kill the defender will no retaliation. A PARLAY is when there is no clear advantage to either party. For SAFETY, both parties remove themselves from the situation and respawn away from eachother.

If the person were to be shooting his gun or making physical contact...he could not take multiple people without being noticed. If he were making physical contact, then he would be at a disadvantage by being pre-occupied to handle the rest. So, you can not surrender multiple people out right.

However, a staggered surrender is possible upon multiple people. A staggered surrender is a single event combined with other single events. However, this means that each individual surrender must be clear without the other parties being able to notice. This is extremely difficult to impossible.

So...you can't surrender 6 people at once but you can surrender 6 people individually. The maximum you can surrender, using Vanguard rules, would be TWO via a knife and gun at point blank range with the gun at someone with zero chance of retaliation.

[TheUNIT]

You're over thinking the entire situation.....

The surrender/bang bang rule is used when ONE person has clear advantage over another PERSON. This means that it can only be used when the attacker can kill the defender will no retaliation. A PARLAY is when there is no clear advantage to either party. For SAFETY, both parties remove themselves from the situation and respawn away from eachother.

If the person were to be shooting his gun or making physical contact...he could not take multiple people without being noticed. If he were making physical contact, then he would be at a disadvantage by being pre-occupied to handle the rest. So, you can not surrender multiple people out right.

However, a staggered surrender is possible upon multiple people. A staggered surrender is a single event combined with other single events. However, this means that each individual surrender must be clear without the other parties being able to notice. This is extremely difficult to impossible.

So...you can't surrender 6 people at once but you can surrender 6 people individually. The maximum you can surrender, using Vanguard rules, would be TWO via a knife and gun at point blank range with the gun at someone with zero chance of retaliation.

^ I agree. At Vanguard I have had kids trying to surrender me from literally rooms away.

[Ocean]

You're over thinking the entire situation.....

The surrender/bang bang rule is used when ONE person has clear advantage over another PERSON. This means that it can only be used when the attacker can kill the defender will no retaliation. A PARLAY is when there is no clear advantage to either party. For SAFETY, both parties remove themselves from the situation and respawn away from eachother.

If the person were to be shooting his gun or making physical contact...he could not take multiple people without being noticed. If he were making physical contact, then he would be at a disadvantage by being pre-occupied to handle the rest. So, you can not surrender multiple people out right.

However, a staggered surrender is possible upon multiple people. A staggered surrender is a single event combined with other single events. However, this means that each individual surrender must be clear without the other parties being able to notice. This is extremely difficult to impossible.

So...you can't surrender 6 people at once but you can surrender 6 people individually. The maximum you can surrender, using Vanguard rules, would be TWO via a knife and gun at point blank range with the gun at someone with zero chance of retaliation.

I agree with that. I diffidently agree with the retaliation part of it. Which comes back to what INFIDEL said, "if you say surrender to 2 before you get killed then you got 2 out of 6." But it's not hard to surrender a whole group of people before they do anything to you. All it takes is a split second from both parties to react. I can say surrender really fast while waving my gun around pointing it at every single player as I say the word.
The video is also a good example. At the beginning that kid ran up and said "Bang" just once to a whole bunch of people. Looking at the situation if he would have said "Bang" as fast as he could while pointing at players he probably would have gotten 2 or 3 before being shot.

[chinole]

I say no surrenders, if airsoft is a sport, would you tell a football player to lay down if he has 3 tacklers waiting for him. We all expect to get shot. Dats what protection is for. You aint gonna play any sport and expect to not get injured. Screw surrender dis is airsoft.

[Ocean]

I say no surrenders, if airsoft is a sport, would you tell a football player to lay down if he has 3 tacklers waiting for him. We all expect to get shot. Dats what protection is for. You aint gonna play any sport and expect to not get injured. Screw surrender dis is airsoft.

Just cause you think that way doesn't mean others do. Are you going to walk up to a 10 year old kid who is playing at vanguard and shoot him from 2 feet away because you don't want to abide by the rules? And don't give me the bull shit about how "If you can't take it, then you shouldn't airsoft."
On another note, that's not what this thread is about. Surrender rule will always be mandatory at Vanguard no matter what; if somebody decides they don't like the rules and don't follow them, then the Refs will take action on that player. One doesn't walk into an airport with a gun because they don't like the rule that no guns are allowed (Anyone with their head screwed on straight of course). You'll get your ass shot.
 

[ghost1216]

are we talkin about bang bang or surrender?? i thought they were two differents things....