The Trouble with Vanguard

[Bob Z Moose]

TL;DR: Field is great. Kids under ~15 are terrible. Staff was decent. Park your stuff with kids that act their age.

please don't give up on all us ~15 year olds. im 13 and i hate them too. I try to act mature and I do the right thing as much a possible. I also take my airsofting seriously and I hate to see cheating as it takes the fun away from me because nobody good and serious about airsoft ever wants me with them. so I love lighting assholes up and play fair as long as you do too.

I just finished typing the same thing and the sign that says another comment has been posted popped up. I really do not want to have a bad reputation in the Airsoft community just because I am of a younger age. I get where the whole the younger the more immature thing is coming from but there is a handful of mature younger guys in my opinion.

That's why I did the "about" symbol. I KNOW there's kids that take the game as seriously. There's not a ton, but there is. I ended up playing with a few that night. Otherwise, I stand by my statement. There was a ton of silliness and general douchebaggery by the majority of the younger crowd.

As an aside, I haven't seen most of the younger members of this board act with that amount of jackassery (at least online).

[SteveBogie]

P.S. Vanguard, if you have any problem with what I said here, please call me out on it. Everything I put up here is true and ALL the stuff that was said to me by your staff members that I stated here were either quotes or accurate paraphrasing.

I appreciate the in-depth review, this is probably more typical of a normal vanguard visit. The player maturity is unquestionably an issue, it's very difficult to get them to pay attention to the rules and perhaps some form of intro class should be introduced to cut down on some of those related issues.

As for the surrender rule I do agree that it's a bit close but I'm also an adult and not 14-15 which is the majority of the turn out. Weekday nights and friday nights are much better if you are interested in having a smaller older crowd for sure.

Eye protection is required inside the staging area as a safety net against negligent discharges, better safe than sorry.

The bag searches were added to the waiver due to a few incidents of people (not just kids) bringing in things that just don't belong there for instance there have been a few times people have brought in pellet guns thinking they were okay to use. I can assure you the refs are not interested in stealing your belongings but only looking out for the general safety, as for the eyeballing of MP7s that is due to them typically shooting over limit even with the CQB bolt particularly with propane.

As far as the zombie event, as a staff member that works the front desk I never heard of or was made aware of this event and as far as our lock in's we set the date for those at the beginning of the year, as for any communication between PSC and Bryan or Emilee I can't comment or speculate on that.
 
We are doing our best to improve the field and quality of play, we have recently replaced the lower netting with glass windows to address the safety concerns and liven things up a bit. If you are having issues with someone breaking the rules; blind firing, not calling hits, full auto, etc. please bring this to the attention to the refs, they can't help if they don't know, if the situation is not resolved then bring it up with the head ref and then front desk staff.

We want vanguard to be fun and safe for everyone not just cater to children, most of the staff plays and cares about airsoft, if the gameplay suffers we suffer.

I hope I was able to address most of your concerns guys, we do care about the airsoft community and want vanguard to be the best that it can be.

[Fresnel]

As far as the zombie event, as a staff member that works the front desk I never heard of or was made aware of this event

I'm not sure this helps your case, especially considering that after every report of you guys not knowing about the event, PSC called Brian and made absolutely sure that all the VIP staff knew about the event. He repeatedly assured us you all did.

and as far as our lock in's we set the date for those at the beginning of the year

I've heard this from at least one other person. Complaint withdrawn, I'll go strike it out on the OP. However, VIP should not have promised staff attendance on a day when staff could not attend. That's just dirty pool.

[bigwavedave]

We want vanguard to be fun and safe for everyone not just cater to children, most of the staff plays and cares about airsoft, if the gameplay suffers we suffer.
I hope I was able to address most of your concerns guys, we do care about the airsoft community and want vanguard to be the best that it can be.

Steve, I normally wouldn't chime in on stupid crap like this, but I used  to go to Vanguard once at least once per week during mid week (Wed. & Thursday) sessions to get some more trigger time with a few of the mature (18+) players and to avoid huge player counts.  That means I was investing $80 to $100 per month in Vanguards business, that's about 4 times what I pay in Gym membership fees and I'd be more than happy to go back.

I personally believe that Brian has nothing but good intentions and is a standup person, however the administration of the facility over there shows a complete lack of understanding of what the dedicated airsoft players, that have dedicated significant amounts of time and money into this hobby are seeking to find in CQB style airsoft.  It would be nice to see Brian take this thread and read it too see what the general consensus is of his staff and the issues that are happening over there.   I don't know about the PSC issues, but I know the issues with theft and overall mismanagement are clearly portrayed in this thread, Vanguard is at best a babysitting arena and obviously nobody cares about the nature of airsoft as a hobby that dictates players have honor, integrity of play, and respect for the game. 

Unless changes are made this is how it will remain and threads like this that bag on the place will continue to pop up instead of threads talking about how professional the staff is, how good the gameplay is and how it keeps getting better.

Here's some business ideas 101 as food for thought..

1. Display all rules (Honor, Hit Calling, Integrity of Play) on big boards in the lobby, in the game arena, the restrooms, and the front door. (read it, know it, live it, or leave)
2. Have 4 or 5 specific games that you normally run with rules displayed so that if Game #1 is in play then everyone who can read will be able to read the damn rules and follow them.  Don't leave this in the hands of a ref.
3. Split sessions to allow no more than 18 players on the field at any 1 point in time.  Give everybody 1 hit and run fast games or split the arena into two separate fields with a wall to accomodate large player counts.
4. Set a  ladies nights, Police, Fire LEO nights, 18+ only nights.
5. Fix low light capabilities to provide a better low light game play.
6. change the field once a month to keep it fresh and fair
7. If referees are going to be involved then have them patrol the floor with a riot shield and move kids from spawns, observe hit issues, and maintain game integrity, if not then what are they there for?  Babysitting?

[Fung Li]

I get where the whole the younger the more immature thing is coming from but there is a handful of mature younger guys in my opinion.

Yes, there are, just as there are people 30-something years old I see acting like a 10-year-old.  Not to be stereotyping or anything

[Rd maul]

We want vanguard to be fun and safe for everyone not just cater to children, most of the staff plays and cares about airsoft, if the gameplay suffers we suffer.
I hope I was able to address most of your concerns guys, we do care about the airsoft community and want vanguard to be the best that it can be.

Steve, I normally wouldn't chime in on stupid crap like this, but I used  to go to Vanguard once at least once per week during mid week (Wed. & Thursday) sessions to get some more trigger time with a few of the mature (18+) players and to avoid huge player counts.  That means I was investing $80 to $100 per month in Vanguards business, that's about 4 times what I pay in Gym membership fees and I'd be more than happy to go back.

I personally believe that Brian has nothing but good intentions and is a standup person, however the administration of the facility over there shows a complete lack of understanding of what the dedicated airsoft players, that have dedicated significant amounts of time and money into this hobby are seeking to find in CQB style airsoft.  It would be nice to see Brian take this thread and read it too see what the general consensus is of his staff and the issues that are happening over there.   I don't know about the PSC issues, but I know the issues with theft and overall mismanagement are clearly portrayed in this thread, Vanguard is at best a babysitting arena and obviously nobody cares about the nature of airsoft as a hobby that dictates players have honor, integrity of play, and respect for the game. 

Unless changes are made this is how it will remain and threads like this that bag on the place will continue to pop up instead of threads talking about how professional the staff is, how good the gameplay is and how it keeps getting better.

Here's some business ideas 101 as food for thought..

1. Display all rules (Honor, Hit Calling, Integrity of Play) on big boards in the lobby, in the game arena, the restrooms, and the front door. (read it, know it, live it, or leave)
2. Have 4 or 5 specific games that you normally run with rules displayed so that if Game #1 is in play then everyone who can read will be able to read the damn rules and follow them.  Don't leave this in the hands of a ref.
3. Split sessions to allow no more than 18 players on the field at any 1 point in time.  Give everybody 1 hit and run fast games or split the arena into two separate fields with a wall to accomodate large player counts.
4. Set a  ladies nights, Police, Fire LEO nights, 18+ only nights.
5. Fix low light capabilities to provide a better low light game play.
6. change the field once a month to keep it fresh and fair
7. If referees are going to be involved then have them patrol the floor with a riot shield and move kids from spawns, observe hit issues, and maintain game integrity, if not then what are they there for?  Babysitting?

Dave this is the best post in this entire thread.

The problem with VIP is that I dont see anything changing, I agree that Brian's intentions are good BUT with the influx of kiddies that play there its to easy to keep it the way it is and keep selling.

When Steelworks was at its highest we would play there once every week or so, I have not been in awhile BUT now I am intrigued to see what all this fuss is about.

I know one thing I severely doubt they will be making me do any push ups as I am sure I could out lift the entire staff

[Ocean]

As an employee of Vanguard I am not commenting about this thread or arguing with anybody.

In response to Dave some of the ideas you have listed have or are already been taken care of to our best ability.

1. General Airsoft Rules for our field are displayed within the staging area on both sides for every customer to see. It is a BIG board.
3. We have taken extreme notice with the large amount of players recently and are doing out best to control the large quantity. So we have now started splitting the games between the sides. One side of the staging area is considered Alpha and the other Bravo. Typically we split between 15-20 players depending on the crowd.
5. We do our best to accommodate low light games.
6. The field is changed every week, at the beginning of the week. We move around barrels, desks, toys, blocking doorways, blocking windows, ECT. It's physically impossible to move the walls, due to them being nailed to the floor.
7. Referees are sent into the field almost every game possible. Depending on the player count and number of Referees on staff typically depends on whether or not they get sent in. But I assure you they are sent in as much as possible. When they are in there they are looking for any type of violation; such as, not calling hits, blind fire, not surrendering, safety issues, fighting, ECT. Refs move about the field with a riot shield that says "Referee" on it.

Like I said before, I'm not commenting about this thread but I am simply answering some of Dave's ideas.

[Bob Z Moose]

Steve, since you quoted me, I feel compelled to respond. I'm glad you liked my review. Honestly, I had a pretty fun time. There was a lot of things I could've done on a Saturday night that wouldn't have been as fun.

Honestly, I don't know how you expect a "class" to cure the problem with the rules. Here's an idea: make the parents of kids under 15 stay and watch their lil darling play. As soon as Suzy soccer mom hears lil Johnny scream at the top of his lungs "This f** isn't calling his hits!" or "You're cheating, you m***** f*****!", I think a lot of problems will be solved. That or how about cheaters actually sit a game out? The fact that these kids are basically left to their own devices and allowed free run of the field is the worst part of VIP. I just think that a bunch of yuppies treating you like a babysitting service with guns isn't the best way to run things.

The surrender rule is ridiculous and there isn't really a defense for it beyond aforementioned yuppies. If lil Johnny comes home with welts and a couple of blood blisters from getting hit at what, in real life, is considered CQB distances, she won't let the lil f***** tike come back. We get it. That being said, if the kids can't handle the nature of the game they need to pick up another hobby or sport. 330 is under spec for most guns that I could buy at your store. You guys either need to change this or accept that we will continue to complain about the MED or the fps limits.

I would love to be able to come out on week nights, but I have this little thing called school and another called work. The lock in started a couple of hours after my shift ended. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to come. Aside from that, your session prices are pretty put of step for what most people can afford. 20 something for 3 hours and the gas to get there and back is pretty far out. That and I can't bring my own water, unless its sealed? How deep of pockets do you think the average player in their 20s have?

The bag search thing isn't an uber sticking point with me. I get that you need to keep everything safe. What you didn't say is under what circumstances you would search a bag. That's the major sticking point for most of us.

Eye protection in the staging area is ridiculous. If you had better control over the kids, I wouldn't have to wear my goggles constantly. How about providing shooting glasses for guest use so I don't have to wear goggles that get uncomfortable eventually?

Oh and something I forgot to put in my original post: what's with the "trusted players" thing. There was a 12 year old kids there that the staff said "was here every weekend". When it came time for semi only games, this kid was allowed burst fire. He pestered the staff into letting letting him play as a zombie every game (with a nerf sword). Not catering to the children, eh?

Ocean, I got to say, I never saw a ref in the field once and low light games were a pain. No light of any kind and players without lights were S.O.L. Kinda lame.

Dave had a ton of great suggestions. Just saying.

[xgecko54]

The surrender rule is ridiculous and there isn't really a defense for it beyond aforementioned yuppies. If lil Johnny comes home with welts and a couple of blood blisters from getting hit at what, in real life, is considered CQB distances, she won't let the lil f***** tike come back. We get it. That being said, if the kids can't handle the nature of the game they need to pick up another hobby or sport. 330 is under spec for most guns that I could buy at your store. You guys either need to change this or accept that we will continue to complain about the MED or the fps limits.

I second this. It's airsoft, not laser tag. It's going to hurt, you are going to get hit with fast flying plastic (not saying safety isn't a good thing). The surrendering causes more disputes than saves injuries imo, for example, two people saying at the same time leads to "I said first blablabla" The only time I would find it acceptable is if the person has their back turned.

[N7797]

Steve, since you quoted me, I feel compelled to respond. I'm glad you liked my review. Honestly, I had a pretty fun time. There was a lot of things I could've done on a Saturday night that wouldn't have been as fun.

Honestly, I don't know how you expect a "class" to cure the problem with the rules. Here's an idea: make the parents of kids under 15 stay and watch their lil darling play. As soon as Suzy soccer mom hears lil Johnny scream at the top of his lungs "This f** isn't calling his hits!" or "You're cheating, you m***** f*****!", I think a lot of problems will be solved. That or how about cheaters actually sit a game out? The fact that these kids are basically left to their own devices and allowed free run of the field is the worst part of VIP. I just think that a bunch of yuppies treating you like a babysitting service with guns isn't the best way to run things.

The surrender rule is ridiculous and there isn't really a defense for it beyond aforementioned yuppies. If lil Johnny comes home with welts and a couple of blood blisters from getting hit at what, in real life, is considered CQB distances, she won't let the lil f***** tike come back. We get it. That being said, if the kids can't handle the nature of the game they need to pick up another hobby or sport. 330 is under spec for most guns that I could buy at your store. You guys either need to change this or accept that we will continue to complain about the MED or the fps limits.

I would love to be able to come out on week nights, but I have this little thing called school and another called work. The lock in started a couple of hours after my shift ended. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to come. Aside from that, your session prices are pretty put of step for what most people can afford. 20 something for 3 hours and the gas to get there and back is pretty far out. That and I can't bring my own water, unless its sealed? How deep of pockets do you think the average player in their 20s have?

The bag search thing isn't an uber sticking point with me. I get that you need to keep everything safe. What you didn't say is under what circumstances you would search a bag. That's the major sticking point for most of us.

Eye protection in the staging area is ridiculous. If you had better control over the kids, I wouldn't have to wear my goggles constantly. How about providing shooting glasses for guest use so I don't have to wear goggles that get uncomfortable eventually?

Oh and something I forgot to put in my original post: what's with the "trusted players" thing. There was a 12 year old kids there that the staff said "was here every weekend". When it came time for semi only games, this kid was allowed burst fire. He pestered the staff into letting letting him play as a zombie every game (with a nerf sword). Not catering to the children, eh?

Ocean, I got to say, I never saw a ref in the field once and low light games were a pain. No light of any kind and players without lights were S.O.L. Kinda lame.

Dave had a ton of great suggestions. Just saying.

i gues instead of 15 and under why not 12 or 13? i mean to say that it is those squeakers who mess the game up most of the time. im only a beginner in airsoft but im completely honest and have integrity for being a 15 year old. some people mistake me for being at least 17 or 18.

[CryWulf]

Yes, my entire ex-"team" (if you can even call in that) was kicked out and then later banned.  The banning was due to arguing with the refs over the pushups

Actually, I think I know who you are and why you were banned. Was this within the last 3 or 4 months?

[DesertRat2]

All of you bring up excellent points, my major issue are the refs treating me like I'm some 12 year old delinquent who doesnt know his ass from his elbows. I was threatened to do pushups after trying to clean the fog off of my safety glasses while in the waiting area. Am I not allowed to see? Its kind of hard to reload my weapon or do anything at all when my glasses are covered with fog.

I also think that the sit-out for cheaters is an excellent idea. I am going to vanguard this sunday with a buddy, and I swear to god, if some ass clown doesnt call his shots, I'm walking up to him and unloading on him point blank, and I don't give a shit what anyone says. You shouldn't be doing that, and they shouldnt be getting away with it. I've told refs about cheaters and they do nothing about it. Multiple refs, I might add. The only saving grace that time was the kidness of experienced players who felt sorry for our team and decided to help.

I love the field, I really do, but some EASY. EASY adjustments can be made to make the game a hell of a lot better and fun for the real, dedicated airsofters while still retaining your squeaker customers, and most of these changes have to do with the refs.

If I may make a suggestions, but its probably been suggested before, if you feel the absolute need to search someones bag, at least tell them you are doing so in their presence when a match is over. There is literally no pro to doing it while they are in game, because anything you find you can easily ban while they are right there, or they will have it on them in the field. Tell them you are doing it, and do it in front of them. This still retains your bag searching policy while stopping your corrupted butt tickling refs from stealing peoples belongings.

I apologize for being so vulgar in my post, but it really turns my toilet.

[Fung Li]

Yes, my entire ex-"team" (if you can even call in that) was kicked out and then later banned.  The banning was due to arguing with the refs over the pushups

Actually, I think I know who you are and why you were banned. Was this within the last 3 or 4 months?

yes, I was not present at the game, however

[Korean_Moon]

Dave I applaud your post sir, the one post that seems very constructive

Here are a few issues that I see.

I am a youth pastor for my local church and I have some younger students who want to airsoft. Bringing them to AA games is not a possibility and neither is them coming to the LC series.

The first thing I thought of was to bring them to vanguard. This is the first thing I see here, vanguard is not geared towards experienced players at all. If you want to play against "dedicated" and "veteran" players don't go to vanguard. period

I took some of my students about two weeks ago and they had fun. They got to shoot a bunch of kids near their age, and I had a decent time running with them shooting people.

This brings up the second issue, the refs and staff

I'm not gonna sit here and tell you guys that I am some "high speed airsofter" or a whatever, I've been playing for a while, gone to some LC events and got to be part of a team. I am also an adult

When you walk into the place all the staff are high school aged people. The front desk girls all knew what they were doing and were helpful, no complaints there. I do have complaints about the refs on the field.

When we first got in we went to the chrono station. As we were at the chrono station the refs started yelling at everyone to line up for the next game, "or your gonna sit out". I look at the line for chrono and there are at least 10-15 people waiting. I look at that as poor organization and planning

At this point I have an empty m4 midcap in my hand and when I get up to the chrono a staff is there. The staff is some younger guy probably in high school, he tells me he dosen't have a speedloader or any house bb's to chrono with. I'm used to going to LC games were you show up and the guys running chrono are ready to go, not some agitated HS student trying to tell me I need to get back in line, because he isn't prepared to run a chrono station and now the line is huge.

Finally got all the FPS stuff figured out and got the guns chronoed and we had managed to miss 2 games. I figured meh my bad. The worst part was one of the refs, I don't know his name but he was constantly rude. at one point I called him out because of the way he was talking to some little kids.

He told the kids to do some push ups at some point because of the eye pro in the staging area rule. meh, that seems kinda silly but whatever kids should keep their eye pro on anyways. But then after another round he comes by these kids and tells them again to keep eye pro on in the staging area.

I get how frustrating it can be working with teens, thats what I do daily, but the next thing he said is what pissed me off. He said something like, "didn't I tell you to do push-ups already? ok, whatever you all look the same anyways" and the way he said it was so freaking condescending it pissed me off.

I asked him why he would talk to those kids like that? he changed his attitude and tone when he talked with me and stumbled across some fake excuse saying he didn't mean it in a mean way etc... but I didn't believe him and made the point that these "kids who all look the same" are your customers keep that in mind.

He said ok and walked away. Cool the rest of the day he left the kids alone and left me and mine alone also, seemed to work out for the best.

I'm not trying to say that I'm some badass that calls out the dudes in charge, the point I'm making is I spent a good amout of money and the last thing I want to some high school kid, who thinks he's the "kewlest" or whatever walking around and being a jerk to people.

There was another ref with longer hair there who almost every time I thew a thunder b, went picked it up and gave it to me at the end of the session, thank you sir whoever you are.

Overall I enjoyed my sessions there with my youth students and they had a good time. My students and myself do not view the refs at Vanguard as professionals in any way. The front desk staff was young but very helpful and knew what they were doing.

TL;DR: two issues with vanguard: 1. if you are an "experienced player it's for younger kids, don't go, stick with AA games and the LC series 2. They need to get their refs organized and give them an attitude check

Just to clarify this post is not meant to "flame" or attack anyone at all, I am giving my review on the place from my perspective as an adult who has been airsofting for some time.

[CryWulf]

yes, I was not present at the game, however

Well I remember some group of people all got banned, but it wasn't because they wouldn't do push-ups. It was because they weren't following the rules, weren't listening to refs, and were talking back to the refs. So I think they should have gotten banned, and I was there to see it happen. I think one of them had a cardboard and duct-tape vest, but that might not have been one of them.