Author Topic: Changing times...  (Read 6341 times)

Offline XavierMace

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2013, 10:30:06 PM »
Gotta ask, how does a child get that kind of money?
I also get an allowance of $10 a week, which isn't much, but over time adds up.

Your right, it does add up.  It adds up to 10 years of saving to have $5,000 to spend on airsoft.  So you were saving up for airsoft when you were 5?

Offline xtremeairsoft

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2013, 10:40:21 PM »
Gotta ask, how does a child get that kind of money?
I also get an allowance of $10 a week, which isn't much, but over time adds up.

Your right, it does add up.  It adds up to 10 years of saving to have $5,000 to spend on airsoft.  So you were saving up for airsoft when you were 5?

In 3 years, it'd add up to about $1,500, which is a big chunk of the amount of money I've put in. And like I said, I also did odd jobs and resold various things, mostly sports apparel from the 80s and 90s.
Zach Parks

Offline TheGuardianAirsoft

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2013, 10:47:58 PM »
Years Playing: 1
First Weapon: G&G CM16
Total Spent: 2,500
It's time to operate!!!
Nickname: Blate
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Guns: VFC 416, KWA M16, Echo 1 Troy, WE 1911

Offline Exarach

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2013, 10:49:39 PM »
I'm glad I didn't get into airsoft in the "bad old days" of TM, CA, or SOL. It not only kept the kiddos out of the game, but also kept a lot of good people out. I know there was never a point in my life were i could afford to drop $800+ on a single gun and mags for it.

It was by no means the "bad old days".  Some of the change is good, some is not, at least in my opinion. 

The rise of cheap clones has made the sport more accessable which was the catalyst for the change.  Cheaper costs means more players which means more facilities (fields, shops, etc).  But it also brings downsides.  More negative publicity, less of a "community feel".  Back in the "old days" you could go a year without going to a game, and you'd still know who everyone was at the next one.  While it's great that there's new people, there's something about showing up and being able to recount good times.  There's also the side effects.

Players have become too focused on "winning".  Don't get me wrong, being competative in and of itself is not a bad thing.  Ask anyone who's gamed with me, I don't like to lose.  That said, I can still have fun while losing.  Some of my best memories in airsoft involved my team being on the losing side.  A smoke grenade that back fired, accidentally team killing half your squad, etc.  It also shows in the guns these days.

We'll use Tokyo Marui as the example here since I know Exarach and I have different viewpoints.  My TM G3 chrono'd 280fps-ish.  It ran forever.  I was happy with that.  Then I started getting into ICS M4's.  Those chrono'd 320fps-ish and ran forever.  I was happy with that too.  I never walked up to a chrono worried about making it under the limit.  But these days everyone is trying to run their guns right to the absolute field limits or even trying to cheat their way past the chrono.  I'm not saying it never happened in the past, just saying it's a lot more common.  Back then you'd buy a gun, play a few games with it, then maybe buy a tightbore if you felt it was really lacking.  You often only upgraded when the original part failed.  These days people are already planning their upgrades before even buying the gun.  Don't get me wrong, I like tinker as much as the next person but there's a mindset that you HAVE to upgrade your gun.  Even if you're only doing CQB.

The lower costs also effects R&D.  Less profit means less money to spend on making new stuff.  You look and most of the "cool" new stuff is from small startup companies or individuals (P*, HS5, SeigeTek) and is priced accordingly.  Again, don't get me wrong, this new stuff is great.  But there's a limit to what the home shops can do (at a reasonable cost) which means either prices will have to start going back up or companies will stop releasing new stuff.

I like cheaper stuff as much as the next person.  But eventually you start paying a price for it (see: Wal-Mart).  I'm not faulting anyone for playing the used game nor am I saying you can't get good used guns for cheap.  I've bought my share of $50 guns myself.  My point is the only reason you are seeing so many guns for that cheap is because of the low prices for new guns.  Back when most guns were $300 new, getting a good used gun for under $100 was far less common.  Now that you can get new guns for $100, that drives the cost of most used guns down.

I agree with almost all of this.
I believe it comes down to which side you fall into. Roughly, the speeders, or the re-in-actors.
Trust me, if I could go to a battle where we all used stock marui's and period gear, that would be great, the focus would be on the environment, and the gun would serve as the "prop" that made it possible.

But, if I were to play anywhere else, I would take my top of the line XXXXX that I had put some stuff into.
I cqb with upgraded Marui pistols, it works great, but, I have also used stock marui AEG's, and.....that didn't work so well.


Marui makes a product that is akin to an RC car, I use this example a lot with my uzi, they make a toy, and they know its a toy, so they try and make the best toy possible, good tolerance, looks cool, creaks, wobbles, but in the end, its a toy, its "safe" and then Marui charges you the price of an rc product.

I feel like companies such as G&P/Ca were trying to make guns that happened to shoot pellets. They wanted to hold a gun, and use it, and play great simulation games/whatever, and it had to BE real. They said, "Ok, great, this one is indistinguishable from the one that fires live rounds, lets make the bastard shoot 390fps all day long(G&P) at great speed to let the bastards know were serious!" and this appeals to many players as well.

Honestly, the change in the way the game is played I believe is reflected almost perfectly IN the guns themselves. When I use the Marui's I own, its archaic. It really, really, is different. The pellets kind of coast on out, floating hits ect, small pops, ok rof. Its innocent, its cute, its "hits" and aw nice one! Whereas the battles we see nowadays are longer ranges, Hard smacks, spray rof, or super semi, pellets snap off twigs and crack rocks, we get "kills" and tantrums hahah

It really has changed.
Maybe I will start a real rof/marui club, mace, you can join and we can all piddle away at it each other running and laughing like morons.   
\"Friendly fire isn\'t\"
If a speeding pellet in a quiet woods hits a noob in the face, and he cries, does anyone care?

Offline Bob Z Moose

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2013, 12:33:42 AM »
I think I wasn't clear on what I meant. I was referring more towards the cost point. If costs were still what they were, I know for sure that I wouldn't be able to play.

Mace, you bring up very good points and have much more experience to back it up.

Cheaper guns allow the game to be more accessible to more people, which, as you said, is a mixed blessing. It seems that for every cool new guy there's a dozen kids that bought a CYMA M4 and think they're operator as fuck. I still content that those few cool guys make up for it in the end, however. They're the ones that will still be playing in 10 years that I'll be reminiscing with, along with people like Mooncruiser and Exarach. It's people like that that have kept airsoft going and will keep it going into the future.
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Offline XavierMace

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2013, 10:59:10 AM »
I feel like companies such as G&P/Ca were trying to make guns that happened to shoot pellets. They wanted to hold a gun, and use it, and play great simulation games/whatever, and it had to BE real. They said, "Ok, great, this one is indistinguishable from the one that fires live rounds, lets make the bastard shoot 390fps all day long(G&P) at great speed to let the bastards know were serious!" and this appeals to many players as well.

That latter mindset is the problem, in my opinion.

What is that extra velocity gaining you?  The effect velocity has on range is minimal.  In CQB there's zero reason for the extra velocity.  IE, Vanguard's 330fps is more than enough power to reach out to any range at their field and more than enough to sting.  Upping it to 350 or 375fps would accomplish nothing performance wise, just cause hit's to hurt worse which causes tempers to raise.  ROF, I don't really have a problem with, I just think people are way to worried about it.  I've done high ROF, but my normal field guns are all around 20rps and most of the time I'm on semi anyways.  Yet when I show up with an AEP shooting 280fps, people are like "that's it"?

Outdoors there's a justification for higher velocities (to an extent) but people still aren't happy with that.  At what point do you stop and say "This is stupid"?  I can get my Tanaka's up to about 1,000fps on an external rig.  The only reason for stopping there is the trigger spring isn't strong enough to trigger the valve.  But what would that accomplish?  Sure, I'll get a bit more range than at 550fps but now I might accidentally, literally, kill somebody.  It's not really a game at that point anymore.  I've got an ICS M4 shooting almost 700fps at 25rps.  I did that as a test, not once have I sat on the field wishing I was using it.

It doesn't matter what velocity you are shooting at, you are never going to get real gun performance out of a plastic sphere.  Players just need to accept that and work with it.  It's a game, have fun.  That's why I've got my Maruzen stuff.  Most of their stuff is low velocity and unreliable.  It's also fun as fuck and that's why I still rock it on occasion.

Offline Mooncruiser

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2013, 11:13:15 AM »
My indoor guns all chrono around 330. I think 350 is good just for the fact that so many stock guns come in that range, and the player doesn't need to detune.
I don't feel any pain difference between 330 or 350 myself.
As for high rof, On outdoor venues with full-auto I've been hit 30+ times in the time it takes me to yell "hit!".. That don't cut it.. Sloppy playing, IMO.
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Offline XavierMace

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2013, 11:39:12 AM »
While I understand the convienience of not having to de-tune, that's not a good justificition for higher limits.  That's a good justification for guns to not shoot so hot.  You may argue you can't feel the difference between 350 and 330.  Then what's wrong with 330?  Or 315?  The high velocities are half the reason people have an issue with high ROF.  Getting hit multiple times isn't as much of an issue if it didn't sting like a mofo when you got hit.  I'm not suggesting love taps with a pillow but drawing blood and causing pain shouldn't be the objective here.

Offline Exarach

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2013, 12:05:15 PM »
love taps with a pillow

Marui






Those AEPS you traded me are some of the straightest shooters that size, with great trigger response, but it doesn't even matter haha because when you tag someone it doesn't even make a noise, and they run off, people have no clue they have been hit. I am not advocating a rise of limits, or a skinbreaker, but........for the $330 they charge for that gun new..... maybe 310?  320?

marui pretty much equates 1 fps = $1, often more.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 12:22:32 PM by Exarach »
\"Friendly fire isn\'t\"
If a speeding pellet in a quiet woods hits a noob in the face, and he cries, does anyone care?

Offline Katana0

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2013, 01:33:43 PM »
I bought my first airsoft rifle (a CYMA Thompson M1) when I was 17... Some quick math tells me that was 4 years ago, although it feels like ages!  So here's the breakdown:

Time playing: 4 years
First gun: CYMA Thompson/Kart M14 EBR
Total spent: Not sure, but definitely $2000+


Kept my first rifle for quite some time until my then girlfriend got interested in airsoft.  She played periodically using my gear for about a year, and I decided she needed a gun, so my oldest and dearest battle buddy should be hers.  It's now kinda broken (she tripped over it and snapped the outer barrel off) but I'm hoping she'll be out on the field soon enough again.

My first real field rifle was the M14 I mentioned earlier... As a noodle armed 17 year old, that was a bit too heavy for me, but a few years of working as a sales associate/stock boy, on top of a few years at an auto shop now has me carrying a 249 as my favorite!

When it comes to gun acquisition, I have a motto: TRADE UP!  I've bought some pretty expensive guns, particularly since I ran nothing but GBBR's for around a year and a half (maybe 2 years, I forget), but so far, nothing has beat my 249 in terms of reliability.  Got that thing in a box of awesomeness, and it's pretty much switched every part except the gear box and feed tray cover!  Most of the guns that I have now that top $300 I've traded for, usually rare stuff that I happened to get a long time ago and decided I wanted something newer.

As for the FPS debate, I like to hover around the 350 mark for field guns.  My 249 runs just under 300, and I could probably easily get it higher, but it already sounds like a death metal drummer doing a gravity blast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2Z7eksx4ck), I figure why make it hail harder?  My only to exceptions so far are the AK I run (~380) and the SVD I just got, which levels out at just about 520.  I use my AK primarily for long field engagements in places like SASCO.  With the proper hopup settings and whatnot, my other guns reach out exactly as far as I want them to.  The only exception I've seen is an unknown brand 416 I borrowed from one of my friends once... That thing barely reached out 50ft!  I think it chronoed in at 150 that day, and it was a miserable gun lol.  One of the best games I've ever played, but I couldn't hit anything!

EDIT: I usually abide by the golden rule: Shoot as hard as I want to be shot!  That said, a good portion of the time when I want to get in some good cardio training, and weather permits I will wear some old body armor I acquired a long time ago.  Getting hit in the Kevlar a little harder certainly doesn't bother me, cuz I hear it better.  It's just when those shots start to wander towards my limbs that I'm glad that some people are nice when it comes to FPS limits and go a little lower lol.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 01:37:31 PM by Katana0 »

Offline XavierMace

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2013, 03:15:59 PM »
marui pretty much equates 1 fps = $1, often more.

And?  FPS isn't an indicator of quality.

That said, the AEP's are the only guns I do flat out say to stick with the TM's.  The clones don't shoot any faster than the TM's.  The hopups and materials are so far better on the TM's than the Cyma/JG/DE/Well's.  The batteries TM uses are better as well.  I've had pretty much all the AEP's.  Started with TM's, went to the clones, back to the TM's now.  The CM.030's are hit and miss.  The GOOD CM.030's are an acceptable alternative to the TM considering the price.  The BAD ones are useless.

Edit:  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that TM does nothing wrong or that I don't think they could do better for the price they charge.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 03:17:32 PM by XavierMace »

Offline Exarach

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2013, 03:53:23 PM »
marui pretty much equates 1 fps = $1, often more.

And?  FPS isn't an indicator of quality.

That said, the AEP's are the only guns I do flat out say to stick with the TM's.  The clones don't shoot any faster than the TM's.  The hopups and materials are so far better on the TM's than the Cyma/JG/DE/Well's.  The batteries TM uses are better as well.  I've had pretty much all the AEP's.  Started with TM's, went to the clones, back to the TM's now.  The CM.030's are hit and miss.  The GOOD CM.030's are an acceptable alternative to the TM considering the price.  The BAD ones are useless.

Edit:  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that TM does nothing wrong or that I don't think they could do better for the price they charge.

100% agree on AEPS - cept the skorpions, BUT, ya, that was basically the point I was making. I wasn't saying they were bad for $1=1Fps, Just pointing it out. For the outside, I agree on fps limits, however, the more joules ya have, the more mass you can move, and, a larger pellet will fly straighter.
\"Friendly fire isn\'t\"
If a speeding pellet in a quiet woods hits a noob in the face, and he cries, does anyone care?

Offline Nova

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2013, 11:12:26 PM »
Airsofting for 8 years.
Total spent: $6000+
First rifle: ICS AK74M

Offline Shadow

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2013, 11:28:39 AM »
Been playing since 2009.
First: E1 M4A1
Spent: About $2k
Six Charlie
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Offline Rogue Fox

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Re: Changing times...
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2013, 01:37:48 PM »
Started in 2008
First was a E1 Aug A2 [still the most accurate replica I've had]
Roughly around 1500-2000 in expenses, was able to keep the cost down by doing a lot of trading.

When the shit hits the fan, dont be in front of the fan.