Airsoft Arizona
Off-Topic Forums => General Off-Topic Discussion => Topic started by: Harley on August 04, 2002, 12:30:14 PM
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Hey Vell correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't expanding ammo forbidden due to the Geneva Convention? I agree that expanding ammo would probably be better suited against some apponents versus Ball ammo.
"When I go home and people ask me why I do it, I don't say anything, they wouldn't understand.... it's about the men around you."
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Yes Harley, it is against the rules <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>. But our troops, not the rule makers, are the ones out there risking their lives (sorry, I guess I am preaching to the converted).
I find it interesting that some guns we think are real cool, are actually pieces of crap (or close) when the chips are down.
Hearing about the desire for M203 buckshot loads makes me want an M79 with a vest full of grenades!
-The Crow
"Fear is for the enemy. Fear and bullets."
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Hey Vell correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't expanding ammo forbidden due to the Geneva Convention? I agree that expanding ammo would probably be better suited against some apponents versus Ball ammo.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>
You are correct The "FMJ" or Full Metal Jacketed round was made standard issue by the Geneva convention. Also out lawed or banned were Shotguns, "dum dum rounds", and .50 BMG use agains troops. The Geneva Convention was suppost to "Civialize" War. Is that really posible???
<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/protect.gif" border=0>On the Eigth Day God creatated the Infantry, And the Gates of Hell opened and the Devil Snapped to Attention!!!!
<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/flags/usa.gif" border=0>
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KC:
Shotguns, with buckshot, are still legal. The pointman of a SEAL squad usually carries one.
Also, to add to the expanding round info, our special ops guys do use hollow-point .45 rounds in the SOCOM pistol for sentry removal.
-The Crow
"Fear is for the enemy. Fear and bullets."
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tthe way my recruiter explains the relation of .50 cal and the Geniva is: "the Geniva convention regulates .50 cal for use agains equipment only. Thus, when questions, you were shooting at the enemy's gun, knife, or weapon, not him... the high penetration happened to pass through the equipment and into him." He also explained a technicallity that clothing is equipment. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>
"When in doubt, Empty the Magazine." Don't use a cannon to kill a mosquito?! WHY NOT??!?
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FYI, here's a copy of the Geneva Convention:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm)
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Sounds like everbody using the .50 BMG round out there are finding loopholes so they can shoot at personnel with them. They can't really prove you were actaully aiming for the person himself. "But sir, we were just shooting at his equipment<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>"
Now what was that you were saying?...<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/tank.gif" border=0><img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/2M16.gif" border=0>
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The best point you made, Vell, is that too often guns are sought after or bought based on the cool factor...and they fall short. I'd love a SAW, but they simply don't rate even what the "old" M60 does for reliability among soldiers I've known. Glocks, M16 series guns, and frankly most 1911s ALL have severe jamming issues, but continue to sell in tidal waves because they are popular in movies, TV, and in military history. With work a 1911 is hard to beat, but out of the box very guns are truly "reliable." Avondale PD just dumped all of their Glocks for Sig P220s. Only took them 10 years to get smart!
Now if we could just get our military to dump the M16s...
Good to hear from you Vell. Keep it coming, pal!!
"You are, what you do, when it counts."
-The Masao
"Get on that fifty! Someone get on that fifty!"
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Paco, that was only relating to the treatment of prisoners, not the actual rules of warfare pertaining to use of ammunition. I'm sure there are volumes and volumes of aritcles on their web site. I took a quick look and got lost.
"When I go home and people ask me why I do it, I don't say anything, they wouldn't understand.... it's about the men around you."
Edited by - harley on 08/05/2002 09:08:56 AM
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Kyle, since when do Glocks jam a lot? I've never heard that. I have owned 3 different ones, and they had zero problems. In fact, the only factory, out of the box gun to jam on me was a Sig P220 in .45ACP. I guess it shows that anything man-made can have its flaws.
For the discussion on the .50 cal, that is why the sniper rifles are referred to as "anti-materiel" rifles.
"But sir, I WAS shooting at his vehicle. I can't help that it went through his armor, the building, a tree outside..."
-The Crow
"Fear is for the enemy. Fear and bullets."
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Actually, from I've read, the US never signed the thing for the Geneva Convention, they only semi-agreed to abide by its rules. Which means, if we wanted to have better armament for soldiers (and maybe politically piss some foreigners off), we <b>could</b> issue it, but the US military doesn't want to start losing friendships. However, we still wouldn't be breaking any international law.
--Cyphen
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The Glock issue isn't "the Gospel according to Kyle", I assure you all. It is a known problem and though there are hundreds of owners who have never had a problem, there are tens of thousands of Glocks out there. I used to ship an average of 8 Glocks per week back to the factory in Georgia for repairs, and whenever there was a call for assistance on the range it was usually trouble with a jammed Glock. Their inherent weaknesses include, but are not limited to, the internal striker system and their magazines. You may never have a problem with yours, and like you said...you somehow managed to get a Sig to jam (as most guns out of the box are mechanical problems waiting to happen), but by and large, the Glock is not a comfortable choice for self defense. Most law enforcement agencies bought it for the same reason that the Military went with the Beretta over the Sig...PRICE. Glock undercut everyone in a brilliant marketing strategy that made them rich, but it supplied agencies with years of problems. At the range, I lost count of how many defective magazines we returned to Glock and how many cracked slides we came across. I am talking in the realm of hundreds of guns over the space of 18 months, so it isn't my opinion alone. These things are known to many people but not often published.
The story is the same with the M16s since the day they were introduced, but we still use them, too. It isn't quality, but price that dictates such things.
By the way, I am not just a Glock hater! I have owned and extensively fired almost 100 handguns, plus more if you count those I have fired but not actually owned. Of ALL of them, the only guns to never once give me any trouble were a Sig P220 in .45, a Browning Hi Power in 9mm, and an HK P7M8. Everything else, in some form or another, came up shallow. Ironically, I don't own any of the three presently. Always on the lookout for the "perfect" handgun.
In the end, if I am going to place my life and the lives of others in the hands of firearms engineers, I am going to be extremely picky. As a part of a larger collection I have no quarrels with the Glock. They can be fun to shoot. But I do not recommend them for home defense, defensive carry, or as a primary weapon for any purpose other than plinking.
Sorry for the novel, but handguns are something of a passion for me, and I spend (and have spent) thousands of dollars and countless hours in study and hands on experimenting, as well as work related experience to gain my knowledge.
One day we'll dive into submachine guns...my second passion. No time or room for that here!
"You are, what you do, when it counts."
-The Masao
"Get on that fifty! Someone get on that fifty!"
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Kyle, I'm not disputing your experience. I too have owned and fired a literal armory full of guns. I used to be a gun dealer (early 90's), and never came across a bad Glock. If Glock's quality has gone down, I am not aware of it. I still stand behind the brand.
Back to the original topic, this does relate to everyone's opinions about the different airsoft guns and makers. Everyone has their own experiences, but they are all different. A gun I give a high confidence rating to could be someone else's worst nightmare. Maybe we should create our own "Confidence Rating" chart to give other people something to look at. But of course, you can only give your vote to a gun you have owned or used extensively.
-The Crow
"Fear is for the enemy. Fear and bullets."
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The Glock debate is a very strange thing. I have heard people say that Glocks jam all the time, and it is hard to get them to work right. I have also heard people say that you could pour sand or dirt through a Glock and it would still fire. So do Glocks jam all the time, or work perfectly? The world may never know...<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
Now what was that you were saying?...<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/tank.gif" border=0><img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/2M16.gif" border=0>
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Wolf-
There is no such animal as a gun that never malfunctions. Glocks do have feed problems, Sigs suffer from weak decocker springs, and 1911s have a history of eI also took very good care of it.
The US issue 9mm bullet is the 115gr FMJ.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>
I think you hit the nail on the head about MOST dislikes about weapons in the field, if you don't care for your baby (read weapon), she won't take care of you. And Harley hit the other, most of the weapons once they pass the introduction tests have standards lowered to allow for cheaper manufacture and thus require the average grunt (and yes I've had to earn the title so I can use it) to play mister QC and find the faults (at least in their eyes) and then sweet talk the armorer into fixing / upgrading it.
And that is why I have taken the Amry coraspondance corse "small arms repair".... well that and I am a GUM NUT (jokin, I'm not a nut I'm just cooko for cooco puffs!) Thus I enjoy reading about weapons even dull monolog army TM's, hince my intrest in Airsoft.
Now I can say for a fact that many guys I know take "pookie bait" with them to the field to help make MRE's taste better, or supplement MRE's. And other (like me) bring gear to make life easier, ie my lovely wal-mart cot and chairs (the ones that just pop up!), my tac sling for AR's /M-16's, And my quick detachable scope.
Now if I was heading over to Affganistan I'd be sure to leave the wally world cot and chairs.... maybe, But the tac sling and scope will most deff go with me, plus my personal gun cleaning kit, which includes everything needed for cleaning quickly and thrroghly, plus small mods (ie trigger work, and minor repairs). But maybe that is because I'm a "Guard" soldier that has had the Hoooah level dropped some and want every advantage to make it home.
<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/protect.gif" border=0>On the Eigth Day God creatated the Infantry, And the Gates of Hell opened and the Devil Snapped to Attention!!!!
<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/flags/usa.gif" border=0>
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Forgot I posted here. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
TheCrow, you are correct. You mentioned topics I failed to. I whole-heartedly agree that issue weapons are not as well cared(sp?) for as my 96. The fact that issue weapons are passed from one person to another when a soldier leaves service makes things hard. Other times, when an issue weapon brought back to the armoury in bad shape and allowed to be returned, it makes things hard on the next user.
To me, a hardball 115FMJ isn't the greatest in stopping power. That's range fodder as far as I'm concerned. Not that I don't have confidence in it (like I've said on other forums, "I don't want ANY of them in ME!"), but something better would be nice (like the ol' .45's). The best thing 9x19 has going for it is capacity, which the military gets. However, I seem to thing they abuse and neglect the other crucial elements needed to make good ammo.
Nick R.
A propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane
used to keep the pilot cool. When it stops, you can
actually watch the pilot start sweating.
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Funny talking about the Geneva Convention seeming as though we never signed the darn thing...
"if you can't win the game, destroy the arena"
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Funny talking about the Geneva Convention seeming as though we never signed the darn thing...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>
Yeah ain't that funny! But every servicemember carries a "Geneva Conventions Identification Card". America has a history of holding itself to a higher set of morals. Mainly we have to play fairly while the rest of the world can cheat. sucks don't it?
<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/protect.gif" border=0>On the Eigth Day God creatated the Infantry, And the Gates of Hell opened and the Devil Snapped to Attention!!!!
<img src="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/flags/usa.gif" border=0>
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Here is a report from the 1-187th Infantry that is using the latest hardware in Afghanistan:
The weapons listed have the following 'Confidence Ratings' that the troops gave to them-
M249 SAW 64%
M9 63%
M4 89%
M203 95%
M240B 100%
All ratings reflect the percentage of confidence the soldiers had in the weapons they were issued. All of the soldiers interviewed had used these weapons in combat.
For related info, the M4 was considered only 77% reliable, and was quoted as "getting dirty fast, the handguards rattle and get hot quickly". The M249 was lethal and accurate (79%/89%), but only had a 50% reliability rate. Ease of handling and maintenance (32%/15%) was even lower. One soldier said, "It is great when new, but gets worse over time. The drum mags fall off".
Most grenadiers wanted buckshot loads for their M203s, along with non-slip handguards and a 40mm muzzle cap to keep dirt out.
The only complaint about the M240B machinegun, was the method of carrying ammo. Most gunners wanted improved ammo bags and a quick-detatch sling.
Overall, most weapons issued were hard to keep clean and operating due to insufficient cleaning supplies in standard-issue kits. The 5.56mm round was also criticized. Many of the troops want expanding rounds, not ball or AP, which was for enemies with body armor. Not many of our opponents in the desert wear body armor. To help effectiveness, shooting lower (into the pelvis) produces better results, instead of aiming center-mass.
Now remember, this entire report is for the real steel, not the airsoft versions. All info came from a recent article in 'Stars and Stripes'.
-The Crow
"Fear is for the enemy. Fear and bullets."
Edited by - TheCrow on 08/04/2002 11:41:28 AM