Airsoft Arizona
General Airsoft Arizona => General Airsoft Discussion => Topic started by: Doc Hollywood on July 25, 2007, 12:58:42 PM
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I am writing a brief involving liability releases and in the course of my research I came upon some interesting case law.
IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
In Hohe v. San Diego School District, 274 Cal. Rptr. 647 (Ct. App. 1990), The California Court of Appeals held that an injured party could not disavow a signed release of liability simply because she was a minor.
Under California law, and thus for events in California, together with a well written waiver signed by both parent and minor player, the event organizer could be insulated from liability for contemplated injuries sustained at an airsoft event.
THE PROBLEM IN ARIZONA
Although Arizona oftentimes reads California cases as persuasive, the state of the law and public policy in Arizona precludes this same result.
Arizona law has long looked with disfavor and skepticism on liability releases even for adults. The burden of proof of the viability of the relase is on the event organizer trying to use the release as a shield and the release is very strictly construed against the event organizer.
Although Arizona has yet to consider the exact issue of minors and liability releases at the appeals level, the general public policy here is that minors will be protected from parental actions that foreclose a minor's right to recover in tort against an event organizer [by way of a parentally signed liability release].
A Colorado appeals court has useed the same points of analysis applicable in Arizona in Cooper v. Aspen Skiing Co., 48 P.3d 1229 (Colo. 2002)(en banc), to establish that even a well informed release of liability will not be held valid.
The Court reasoned that because a parent may not release their child's cause of action AFTER an injury, it makes no sense to authorize a parent to release a child's cause of action prior to an injury in the form of a release of liability.
The general result of raising a liability release as a defense in Arizona trial courts today is that the release will not prevent a lawsuit brought by or on behalf of a minor.
For airsoft, or any other sport.
A well written waiver that contains precise education about the specific risks and dangers of the sport and is signed by both parent and minor can still be used to establish a defense based on assumption of the risk, but again its a question of fact that will only be decided by a jury.
And a jury means you just spent a lot of money on defense lawyers.
Food for thought.... flame away....
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Good Post Doc. Very intresting Food for thought.
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Wow, I never realized before just how much legal trouble one of us minors plus one small accident/act of stupidity can cause. :shock:
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Hopefully this will stop the minors from bickering about playing with the Adult Generation.
By no means am I speaking bad towards the minors. I just hope this brings a new perspective to mind the next time a post is brought up.
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Hopefully this will stop the minors from bickering about playing with the Adult Generation.
That's like asking for an end to holy wars.
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Thank you.... 8)
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We can always say at every event there are naked ladies and beer :P
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Sometimes there are... coldburn anyone?
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Sometimes there are... coldburn anyone?
(http://www.airsoftarizona.com/forumbb/images/smiles/eusa_whistle.gif)
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here's where sammy 16 year old comes along and says.
"Nothing will happen to me, and if it does, I'm not a pansy, I wont go crying to mom and dad"
anyone who was going to actually argue that... don't.
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Perhaps this thread should be stickied or added to the FAQ.
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Doc, Is this a more or less accurate laymens interpretation of the legalese?
A liability release which is very general and just states something along the lines of "If you hurt yourself while at event X the organizers of the event are not liable" would not protect you from legal action...even if the participant was an adult.
So in order for a release to be worth the paper its written on, you must specifically list the individual risks associated with the activity. That being said, If some injury isn't listed and somebody is injured in that manner, then the release is useless?
Is that more or less accurate?
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Doc, Is this a more or less accurate laymens interpretation of the legalese?
A liability release which is very general and just states something along the lines of "If you hurt yourself while at event X the organizers of the event are not liable" would not protect you from legal action...even if the participant was an adult.
So in order for a release to be worth the paper its written on, you must specifically list the individual risks associated with the activity. That being said, If some injury isn't listed and somebody is injured in that manner, then the release is useless?
Is that more or less accurate?
kind of in a limited sense, but the legal analysis of getting there is much more complicated because public policy issues come into play in addition to the basic law of contract construction - because a general release is among many things, a contract.
But in law there is no absolute black and white.....
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Great post Doc. Law is starting to fascinate me more and more.
Sticky???
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here's where sammy 16 year old comes along and says.
"Nothing will happen to me, and if it does, I'm not a pansy, I wont go crying to mom and dad"
anyone who was going to actually argue that... don't.
Yeah but its not the minor that sues, its mommy and daddy.
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all i want to do is play with you guys
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That's fine. But kids have to understand. This hobby was created by and for adults, not children. In my opinion it would be similar to allowing kids to hold a 3-gun match, on their own, with real steal and wondering why the outcome was what it was.
Like at any shooting event I don't mind if a responsible adult attends the child. That is good. But if a mentor does not escort you then don't shot with me. That goes for airsoft too.
Then, even though you may have a parent/mentor available which may allow you to attend some games, most adults would not prefer to spend time with kids in this atmosphere. I don't go to the beach so I can swim in the kiddy pool. This is the reason for most games age limits ranging from 16 to 18 years of age. For those games that you qualify for and are held by responsible adults, I don’t mind. Many adults will most likely not attend, except for those running the event.
How many times do we have to go over this, it has been discussed at length ever year. Secondly, this thread is about legality, not about what I want. There is a whole seperate thread on "What I want", which is all that children seem to complain about. But this will never change.
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Wow.... what a great thread.... I forgot I wrote this.
I hope to crap I don't sound like that when I'm talking....
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LOL
when me of age i hope to plays with you guys too!
80
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Unfortunately, the insurance companies know this as well. I'm sure
a underwriting policy on a large event has at LEAST a million dollar
umbrella. Now if a liability release was valid, why would this be you
ask? I'll quote my father who's been a insurance safety
engineer/underwriter for 40 yrs, "you cannot sign away your rights."
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yeah.... the resident lawyer already made that point ..... and you CAN sign away YOUR rights, just not your kids' rights....
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I wish i could construe this better on the Airsoft Nebraska forums, some people are diehard fan of Liability Waivers being the say all end all of problems. Ironically the only people who think that are the younger crowd. Luckily we have an Omaha Police Officer onboard who definetly put alot of legal things to rest.
I've always stated that no matter how bullet proof a waiver is it can still be torn apart by a very determined lawyer. The only way to make sure that stuff like this wont happen is to only approve mature people to play and generally speaking these people tend to be over the age of 20. I'll admit I'm not the most mature person in the world but when it comes to legal stuff I get very very serious because it has serious reprecussions for the people involved.
Good read Doc good read!
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Great post. I appreciate you putting it all together so that we can point the minors to a thread that sums it up.
If it's possible to send this as link to all the (active) minors, it might help squash some of the bickering going on.
Whooo-aahhhhh!
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Good post Doc~!!!
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Very insightful, Doc. Thanks for the heads-up.
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So you guys are saying that minors under 18 cannot play unless the game rules say they can? Because im 13(ignore the 27 down there lol), and i wouldnt mind playing some matches with you guys. I love airsoft, even though i have crappy guns, for my birthday i freakin had an airsoft war with my friends. I would be really disappointed if i couldnt come out with you guys, making me wait 5 years to join the awesomeness. So, can you guys approve to me that even if im 13, with the waiver on this site and a parent i can still play?
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So you guys are saying that minors under 18 cannot play unless the game rules say they can? Because im 13(ignore the 27 down there lol), and i wouldnt mind playing some matches with you guys. I love airsoft, even though i have crappy guns, for my birthday i freakin had an airsoft war with my friends. I would be really disappointed if i couldnt come out with you guys, making me wait 5 years to join the awesomeness. So, can you guys approve to me that even if im 13, with the waiver on this site and a parent i can still play?
The games that are ran using AA rules requires you to be 18. There are some people who organize games who have diffrent rules, some allow minors to play.
Also, why do you have a false age under your profile?
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Because of my parents lol, they dont watch me on the computer, they just ask that i say im an adult. I think that they think if i dont im gonna get raped lol.
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its just too bad that some people are so sue happy, everyones looking to make a quick buck, or lawsuits wouldnt be such a problem for people who run games and fields with good permits and waivers
its really putting a vice grip on airsoft and paintball alike, up here in washington i have seen some of my favorite fields and dozens of other fields go down for stupid things because people would just rather not deal with the several thousands of dollars in permits
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excellent post everyone-you too Doc =D
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So what you're saying is, because I'm seventeen, very few people will let me play?
Well that sucks. Considering I have real firearms training and treat my airsoft guns the same.
I'm also in the NJROTC so I have some military experience if that helps at all. :(
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So what you're saying is, because I'm seventeen, very few people will let me play?
Yes.
I have some military experience if that helps at all. :(
That isn't military experience.
Also, even if it were "military" experience, it still doesn't change the fact that you are legally a minor.
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So what you're saying is, because I'm seventeen, very few people will let me play?
Yes.
I have some military experience if that helps at all. :(
That isn't military experience.
Also, even if it were "military" experience, it still doesn't change the fact that you are legally a minor.
I understand.
It sucks that the rest of my age group ruined the game for me.
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Its not that your "age group" ruined it, if anything, it is your age groups parents. They are the ones that initate legal action. Most kids don't get fucked up, then go, "I'm SOOOO suing you! You are SOOO sued!" They suck it up, and keep playing busted up or not.
Besides, how long do you have until you turn 18? Is it really a big deal if you have to wait for a few months? See it as a chance to get EVERYTHING you need or want for airsoft, before you actually get started.
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Its not that your "age group" ruined it, if anything, it is your age groups parents. They are the ones that initate legal action. Most kids don't get fucked up, then go, "I'm SOOOO suing you! You are SOOO sued!" They suck it up, and keep playing busted up or not.
Besides, how long do you have until you turn 18? Is it really a big deal if you have to wait for a few months? See it as a chance to get EVERYTHING you need or want for airsoft, before you actually get started.
I was so totally depressed until I read this. Lol, thanks, I turn 18 in October.
You're right, this does give me enough time to fully prepare.
I can get the rigs, and the proper camo in the meantime.
Right now, I have plenty of guns, just no gear.
And thanks for understanding that it's mostly the parents, not us.
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Its not that your "age group" ruined it, if anything, it is your age groups parents. They are the ones that initate legal action. Most kids don't get fucked up, then go, "I'm SOOOO suing you! You are SOOO sued!" They suck it up, and keep playing busted up or not.
Besides, how long do you have until you turn 18? Is it really a big deal if you have to wait for a few months? See it as a chance to get EVERYTHING you need or want for airsoft, before you actually get started.
I was so totally depressed until I read this. Lol, thanks, I turn 18 in October.
You're right, this does give me enough time to fully prepare.
I can get the rigs, and the proper camo in the meantime.
Right now, I have plenty of guns, just no gear.
And thanks for understanding that it's mostly the parents, not us.
get all ur shit in perfect working order and start studying hand signals, how to communicate properly on the radio, and squad based tactics. You also have time to get in shape; start running with a semi-heavy pack and get used to the heat.
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Its not that your "age group" ruined it, if anything, it is your age groups parents. They are the ones that initate legal action. Most kids don't get fucked up, then go, "I'm SOOOO suing you! You are SOOO sued!" They suck it up, and keep playing busted up or not.
Besides, how long do you have until you turn 18? Is it really a big deal if you have to wait for a few months? See it as a chance to get EVERYTHING you need or want for airsoft, before you actually get started.
I was so totally depressed until I read this. Lol, thanks, I turn 18 in October.
You're right, this does give me enough time to fully prepare.
I can get the rigs, and the proper camo in the meantime.
Right now, I have plenty of guns, just no gear.
And thanks for understanding that it's mostly the parents, not us.
get all ur s*** in perfect working order and start studying hand signals, how to communicate properly on the radio, and squad based tactics. You also have time to get in shape; start running with a semi-heavy pack and get used to the heat.
I shouldn't have to worry about the being in shape part. Still in the NJROTC.
They don't teach us shit about tactics and hand signals, but I already know how to properly use a radio.
It just feels so far away! I guess until then, I'll just be doing backyard wars with a bunch of other teenagers.
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Its not that your "age group" ruined it, if anything, it is your age groups parents. They are the ones that initate legal action. Most kids don't get fucked up, then go, "I'm SOOOO suing you! You are SOOO sued!" They suck it up, and keep playing busted up or not.
Besides, how long do you have until you turn 18? Is it really a big deal if you have to wait for a few months? See it as a chance to get EVERYTHING you need or want for airsoft, before you actually get started.
I was so totally depressed until I read this. Lol, thanks, I turn 18 in October.
You're right, this does give me enough time to fully prepare.
I can get the rigs, and the proper camo in the meantime.
Right now, I have plenty of guns, just no gear.
And thanks for understanding that it's mostly the parents, not us.
Dude, im in NJROTC and they really dont give you any military experience or real harsh physical activities. All it is is your general orders and how to stand at attention and march. (I go to Thunderbird by the way) Really they dont teach you shit all it is, is an extra bonus to add when you get hired because you "know" leadership and discepline. Theres no way in hell that gives you the right to play airsoft though.
get all ur s*** in perfect working order and start studying hand signals, how to communicate properly on the radio, and squad based tactics. You also have time to get in shape; start running with a semi-heavy pack and get used to the heat.
I shouldn't have to worry about the being in shape part. Still in the NJROTC.
They don't teach us s*** about tactics and hand signals, but I already know how to properly use a radio.
It just feels so far away! I guess until then, I'll just be doing backyard wars with a bunch of other teenagers.
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Its not that your "age group" ruined it, if anything, it is your age groups parents. They are the ones that initate legal action. Most kids don't get fucked up, then go, "I'm SOOOO suing you! You are SOOO sued!" They suck it up, and keep playing busted up or not.
I'm so happy you mentioned that and recognized thats what really happens.
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At some events are 16 year old minors allowed to participate in events?
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At some events are 16 year old minors allowed to participate in events?
It all depends on the event.
From lurking around the games board I'd have to say at least 90% won't let minors play.
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ugh well im 17 so hopefully i will be able to get in a few matches and get some good time in before im 18
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I recommend going on-line, searching for and buying Army FM 7-8 Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad. After your done with that buy some good gear, some BDU's, DCU's, ACU's or whatever and radio. Then when you turn 18 your set.
Of course you can get all that stuff free by calling me and joining the Army National Guard, 11B! 8)
Oh and JROTC isn't and never will be "Military Experiance" if marching was "Military Experiance" then your school band would be just as qualified.
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appreciate the advice will keep all in mind
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while ur at it, go ahead and enlist! you can do it with your parents sig. at age 17. lol
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Well we're looking for some people to come to a match in prescott in granite dells, age 15 and up so pm us if you are interested. No bullshit replys either just people who are interested! Thanks guys.
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Well we're looking for some people to come to a match in prescott in granite dells, age 15 and up so pm us if you are interested. No bullshit replys either just people who are interested! Thanks guys.
You missed the point of this thread, please take your Stormtrooper helmet off.
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This wasn't for the point all of our team has a legal voucher so piss off. and if they dont then we make them sign one.
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He's saying you missed the point of this thread. This is to inform minors of the potential legal repercussions of poor decision making. This is not a thread for you to get a game together, we have threads for that. And unless your "wavier" was written by a lawyer, I doubt it counts for much.
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This wasn't for the point all of our team has a legal voucher so piss off. and if they dont then we make them sign one.
You just gave every regular over the age of 18 license to shit all over your posts/threads and you just made the lives of everyone under 18 a little bit tougher on this board.
I hate it when people never read through the entire thread and hate it even more so when it is some kid who hasn't learned humility yet. Take Doc's plan of action to heart because you obviously need it.
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Whatthefuck is a "legal voucher" anyway ???
I dont remember that from law school ....
Hmmm..... sounds like that bullshit to me.
I fuckinghate these tossfuck kids who think they know something...
We need a Hall of Shame on this forum....
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Why don't we try adding a "Dumbass of the Week" title bestowed to those who think they know better than what established members say.
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Why don't we try adding a "Dumbass of the Week" title bestowed to those who think they know better than what established members say.
Don't bother. I'd just be the same guy every week, until someone else crawls out of the shallow end of the brain pool and logs on.
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I'd just be the same guy every week
FREUDIAN SLIP
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I'd just be the same guy every week
FREUDIAN SLIP
HOLY ****! Totally an accident. I'd better re-evaluate my existence...
Goddamnit.
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Wow, so true, go psychology.
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lolz would you like a kracker?
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So is this just sayin that minors are aloud to airsoft but just can't go to the court if they get hurt cause if thatsthe case i really want to play airsoft cause i am bored lol.
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NO.
We do not allow minors to play because there is no way to protect game organizers from lawsuits in the event of an injury.
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Atleast its not as bad as Canada. When i lived there, trying to play under 18 just won't go down. Not to menchen that airsoft guns are restricted from comming into the country so AEG prices are generally 400-800$ for the most simple peice of shit gun. When I was 16 and wanted to play at local games, i would of had to have my parents sign a waivor and have my parents come out and watch me play all day or it was a no go.... Constant supervision from a legal guardian or atleast thats how it was where i lived. In order to even be taken seriously on airsoftcanada you need to be age verifed, as in meet with an ASC rep to verify your age. So its not that bad, compared to some :mrgreen: Glad i moved back to the US. I love it here.
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blame canada
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blame canada
ahahaha, lulz.
Or The Communist Republic of KaLiF0oRnIA :twisted:
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GOD! I hate when ghetto kids think there all that, so they go out and du stipid actions that gets our sport in even deeper trenches than its already in. =;
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Thank you man you pretty much summed that up!
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Hey Mods... how about some clean up in this isle ... seems the corpus of the discussion is lost in the stink of stupidery....
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Thank you man you pretty much summed that up!
I think saw gunner was refering to you,....
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I don't really care about saw gunner or doc they don't matter. I already know I have everything I need for this to work.
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Don't count them out that easily! The wisest man listens 3 times before he speaks, I have gotten good advice from Doc's posts before, the worst you can do is read it and verify if what he says is true, which has a high probability, if everything is still good to go from your end, then your still in the clear, no harm done, but if there is something you missed? It never hurts to be very sure, as opposed to sorry.
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the most law paranoid of us minor airsofters are the ones that should not be rooted out.
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Doc's a lawyer, and your keny and eli makers of condom grenades. huh. :roll:
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I am a kid and i dont get what everyone is complaining about. I still have to wait 2 years to play seriously but hey i can deal with it. For all of the kids thinking this isn't fair keep your mouths shut because things happen and if a kid gets injured chances are the parent will sue. Just suck it up everyone had to wait to airsoft at some point so i'm sure a few years will be well worth when you can play not worrying about any legal crap and just enjoying the game. Remember fellow teens patience is a virtue. 8)
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Remember fellow teens patience is a virtue. 8)
Brown-Noser. lol ;)
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everyone had to wait to airsoft at some point
I had to wait 24 years from the time I was 8 years old using fallen tree branches to pretend myself and my friends were shooting each other, until I turned 32 and discovered airsoft.
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So I have to wait 4 years until i can play with the big boys.
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So I have to wait 4 years until i can play with the big boys.
http://www.airsoftarizona.com/rules.htm (http://www.airsoftarizona.com/rules.htm) Short answer, yes.
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amen for tucson.
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So wait. I"m a minor. I can't play with you guys? Is that what your saying? I joined to airsoft but no one lets me and if they do its somewhere 2 hours from my house. Anyways yes I do understand why. I liked the 16 year old "i wont go crying home to mom and dad" and I know that's what you guys believe in, but come on, aren't you happy the newer generation wants to be like you guys?(los alamos isnt mexican and is 14 years old-proven airsofter)
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So wait. I"m a minor. I can't play with you guys? Is that what your saying? I joined to airsoft but no one lets me and if they do its somewhere 2 hours from my house. Anyways yes I do understand why. I liked the 16 year old "i wont go crying home to mom and dad" and I know that's what you guys believe in, but come on, aren't you happy the newer generation wants to be like you guys?(los alamos isnt mexican and is 14 years old-proven airsofter)
Depending on the rules stated by the game organizer, you may not be allowed at a game if you are a minor.
If the game organizer says that a certain age group is allowed than it is, but if not, don't even show up, we have carded before.
It has nothing to do with maturity, age, race, ethnicity, socioeconomic background, and sometimes has nothing to do with legalities, we don't care what your excuse is, don't show up. There are plenty of games out there for minors by minors, you just aren't looking hard enough.
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(los alamos isnt mexican)
(http://www.endyourself.com/roflpuke.gif)
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(http://www.endyourself.com/roflpuke.gif)
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
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I'm still confused. Is it illegal for minors to posses them or not?
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You can own an airsoft gun at any age though some stores won't sell to you as a minor, there is no big law about it but stores make up their own company policies concerning it.
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Fat_Santa54 is very tired of hearing the same argument a million fucking times
Why do you guys keep asking the same question, there are about a dozen toipics on the games thread with this argument as well as 6 page on this thread telling why they dont want minors playing, asking the same question a million different ways isnt going to change anything.
and just because i cna...... (http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii219/Fat_Santa54/roflpuke.gif)
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LOL okey dokey. Well if anyone wants to join me for my Jan.4th airsoft war in Glendale, AZ you can. It's behind the Sleep America, you know the one next to that hotel? If you can find it you can play! =P~
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LOL okey dokey. Well if anyone wants to join me for my Jan.4th airsoft war in Glendale, AZ you can. It's behind the Sleep America, you know the one next to that hotel? If you can find it you can play! =P~
fail fail fail fail... You are NOT going to play behind a store. This is exactly the image we are trying to get away from. And why would you even post this??
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Um okay? It's perfectly legal if that's what your wondering. I just laugh at you guys all afraid of the cops and stuff. In glendale its legal!
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Ok I am a minor as well but are kids honestly this ignorant? ](*,)
"Phoenix permits firing of BB guns by minors on their own property with adult supervision and meeting certain safety requirements. Otherwise, shooting in public is a misdemeanor. Tucson and Glendal prohibit firing BB or airsoft guns and possession unless said minor is accompanied by a parent."
Both you AND your parents get charged a class 2 misdemeanor.
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LOL okey dokey. Well if anyone wants to join me for my Jan.4th airsoft war in Glendale, AZ you can. It's behind the Sleep America, you know the one next to that hotel? If you can find it you can play! =P~
the cops need a more specific address, could you list the crossroads?
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Um okay? It's perfectly legal if that's what your wondering. I just laugh at you guys all afraid of the cops and stuff. In glendale its legal!
Hey you know its perfectly legal to take my bushmaster and fire it in my backyard, because I did no research and cant prove it, but dont worry it is. Anyone want to come over and shoot some rounds off too? Maybe we can even shoot the padio lights out of the neighboors that live below my house!!!
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sure fat_santa, I'll take you up on that offer ](*,)
This argument is getting truly moronic. Anyone who thinks you can just go behind some store to play airsoft needs a mental evaluation ASAP.
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Woot we played today. It was awesome! Besides the store next to our area is abandoned. I just laugh and laugh and laugh at you guys. Oh the intersection is between Running Deer Road and Yo Mamma Drive
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Your ingnorance, and the others like you WILL be the downfall of our sport. I don't take legal advice from anyone besides lawyers, let alone someone
who is not old enough to vote on those laws or even responsible to enough to abide by them. Yet you cry about not being old enough
about playing with the adults. THIS is why you get clumped into the "kid" catagory. Wait until you're of age and you still won't be welcome.
You're the reason ALL the under 18 guys get stereotyped and I'm sure they'll all thank you. I know I do, this is why I don't allow exceptions.
You were OK up until a few posts ago, now I see the reality.
Thank you kid, thank you.
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This thread needs to be kept but cleaned up. :|
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This thread needs to be kept but cleaned up. :|
ie. only a few posts and the rest deleted and locked.
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OKey dokey. Dont worry my uncle is letting us use his two acre land for airsofting! Woot now we don't have to break the law like children. Those young kooks cant obey the law for 1 minute!!!
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OKey dokey. Dont worry my uncle is letting us use his two acre land for airsofting! Woot now we don't have to break the law like children. Those young kooks cant obey the law for 1 minute!!!
Good to hear that. That is a step in the right direction.
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Those young kooks cant obey the law for 1 minute!!!
Is he talking about himself?
:-s
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Woot we played today. It was awesome! Besides the store next to our area is abandoned. I just laugh and laugh and laugh at you guys. Oh the intersection is between Running Deer Road and Yo Mamma Drive
I haven't even started playing airsoft and you make me cringe. I just hope that by the time I acquire a place to store an airsoft rifle and a reliable method of transportation people like you haven't already buried the sport.
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playing in undisclosed public locations, is the road to playing your game boy in the hospital after uncle joe who lives behind sleep america shot you in the leg and called the cops. you live in glendale for crying out crap, your lucky enough to have multiple airsoft shops and more than four times as many actual fields than tucson.
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lol I thought we were done with this conversation. I got my own field now, what now!
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Please lock this post! There is a great deal of good information and I thank Doc for posting such great material! Even though I didn't agree with him in the first place, and I also don't feel that this post should be littered on by these other...well ideots ](*,)
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I agree(lol don't worry no more posting here)
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So where can we get these waivers?
Edit: Got it.. :D
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lol I thought we were done with this conversation. I got my own field now, what now!
I want to kick your dog !! :-s.........................JK Kinda.... :roll:
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while i dont complain rather just wait for a match open for minors (1 more year til 18 anyway), i would have to ask; what happens if someone whos already 18 gets hurt at one of these events? couldnt they sue the hoster of the event also? if so why dont you guys worry about that too? just because you turn 18 doesnt mean you go through some magic transformation into a mature adult... there are plenty of stupid 18 and above year olds out there.
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because since 18 is considered a legal adult it is assumed that the person
involved had enough sense to understand what the risks involved were, and a parent cant sue on behalf of an adult as far as I know.
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If you took the time to slowly read and fully comprehend the initial information in this thread you would be able to answer your own question.
When playing any kind of athletic activity, a person impliedly assumes the known and foreseeable risks of injury associated with that activity. Professional sports teams all the way to loosely organized community sports activities would all be examples where the participants assume the risk of injury. Including paintball and airsoft.
Some events require a written "waiver of liability" that contains an express acknowledgement that the participant is assuming the risks.
To grunt it down ... when you play BB games you know (or should know) that you might get hit by BBs, and you know (or should know) that getting hit by BBs can cause injury. By playing the BB game you agree that the risk of that injury is worth playing the game and consent to the physical contact aspect of playing.
The "magic transformation" is that assumption of the risk generally only applies to adults - not to minors.
The law of negligence is beyond the realm of discussion here and is vastly more complicated than your limited education would allow you to comprehend. In a nutshell, those 18 years of age and older have a different standing in the law than those who are under the age of 18. That's why.
Of course its always up to whoever is organizing the game to decide whether to allow minors or not. Legal matters aside, its thier game and their decision to keep minors out. The reasons for their decision to keep minors out are not generally open to negotiation. There are some events where you must be 21 to attend. There are others that requrie you to be privately invited and vetted and vouched for to participate in. Elite ? Definitely. But there are virtually zero dramas at these events.
while i dont complain rather just wait for a match open for minors (1 more year til 18 anyway), i would have to ask; what happens if someone whos already 18 gets hurt at one of these events? couldnt they sue the hoster of the event also? if so why dont you guys worry about that too? just because you turn 18 doesnt mean you go through some magic transformation into a mature adult... there are plenty of stupid 18 and above year olds out there.
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sorry i didnt take the time to read the whole thing, i just kinda skimmed through it. i do get it now though. thanks for taking the time to atleast explain it rather than go off on me like most people tend to do. :)
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Sometimes Mom and Dad do the crying for their kids, I have a son, and a daughter, Fortunately I always told them to Suck it up and move on, people always get hurt, There is always a risk of injury. its why we do this, How much fun do you have sitting in your safe, and secure chair watching tv? As much as getting out there and Getting into an adrenalin rushing Firefight with 20 other freinds and enemies?? I for one enjoy my oversided Recliner Chair but Also Crave the Excitement of getting out and getting wild.
Just My Humble Opinion
Falcon
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exactly, you sound like me haha!
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KamikazeSM i'm confused why would you make you post of "To Ressurectors and Trolls" and then not lock this shit thread down?
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Helmet, Goggles, BDU's sounds safe enough to me. Plus, when playing any sport there is always a risk of injury, I broke my wrist at a skate boarding lesson, I didn't complain, and if you get injured in airsoft it's a battle scar therefore your coolness will go up.
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Thats how I feel about it but their are unfortunatly laws and stuff, just have a waiver made and have the parents sign it and understand whats it's for.
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very true
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(http://www.pushingplay.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/facepalm.png)
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I made a waiver for my team, basically just copying a field trip permission slip, editing it for the words "airsoft" and "will not sue". But we not serious and I only use it on seventh graders that think their tough with their pistols and try to come out and play with us. Still I think it is a pretty solid permission slip.(remember, im the guy who caused all the controversy about minors in the first place?)
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All I'm trying to do is obey the law, and I really do think AA has helped me mature my airsoft ways. Otherwise I probably woulda been called on by the police by now.(happened to one of my friends, he said it was scary)
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I made a waiver for my team, basically just copying a field trip permission slip, editing it for the words "airsoft" and "will not sue". But we not serious and I only use it on seventh graders that think their tough with their pistols and try to come out and play with us. Still I think it is a pretty solid permission slip.(remember, im the guy who caused all the controversy about minors in the first place?)
look, just because you made a "waiver" doesn't mean its still ok. especially when someone "host" a game on land that is illegal to play on. Why is it so challenging for minors to understand this stuff. It did take me a little while to understand it myself at first. However that was about 5-6 years ago, when i was like 13 or something like that. Also i figured it out pretty quick.
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I made a waiver for my team, basically just copying a field trip permission slip, editing it for the words "airsoft" and "will not sue". But we not serious and I only use it on seventh graders that think their tough with their pistols and try to come out and play with us. Still I think it is a pretty solid permission slip.(remember, im the guy who caused all the controversy about minors in the first place?)
look, just because you made a "waiver" doesn't mean its still ok. especially when someone "host" a game on land that is illegal to play on. Why is it so challenging for minors to understand this stuff. It did take me a little while to understand it myself at first. However that was about 5-6 years ago, when i was like 13 or something like that. Also i figured it out pretty quick.
+1
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Twitchy, to reply to your post if might be hard for most minors (dumb 8th graders) to understand the laws but it's not that hard for all of us (minors, not 8th graders). Playing in the middle of the street, pretty stupid (8th graders). Range test and plinking in the backyard, not so stupid(me, most 10th graders and above).
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Ferrari, what i'm getting at is that the argument still leans to the fact that minors pose a problem at times, and that unfortunately all to often. Now there are a few of you out there that are very smart, law bidding people. Who respect this hobby and listen to those who have been here for a long time. Then there are those who for some reason continue to argue with what everyone say's. If you play in legal area's great. If you don't do anything stupid great. I respect that. My point is the fact that minors need to stop fighting the rules, obey them and listen to great group of people here. A lot of the time they think something they do makes it legit to do what they see fit. Because they made a "waiver" or ask a neighbor. Now i understand for some that when they first get started they do some dumb things, we all have, and you learn and build from those mistakes. Some however don't piece that together and need to shut up and listen to what people have to say here. It may not be what they want to hear but its what it is. Such as i want to go to Vegas and play in the casino's, however i can't due to my age, and i have to wait the year before i'm eligible to do so. You have to wait a few things out and yes it may suck, i did it. So can a lot of you. I had to wait until i was 17 before i could join the Marines, and i held out for as long as i did. It sucks i know. Just listen to what people have to say. And threads like this don't need to drag on and become like 20 pages long of the same B.S. So in summery....Minors you need to listen to what people say and stop arguing. And i apologize in advance for those who this does not apply to.
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Wow is this still going on?!
We're (The AZ Army National Guard and Gearbox) are trying to do something to get kids playing airsoft some place safe, legal and central to the valley.
In the mean time stop doing stupid sh*t stop telling adults, parents, and service members we're stupid, and hang tight. Belive it or not, we don't want you stupid ass's hurting yourselves (your our social security) or destroying the sport for us. We really do want to teach and guide you, ok?
There so to sum it up don't be a dumbass.
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Wow, I got owned :oops: . What I was trying to say was that it's not necessarily all minors that are bad, it's just the ones who are usually younger than thirteen who think they know better than everyone else. And I did not mean to call any adults stupid, that would be extremely foolish, I am just in 9th grade I have no influence or power compared to adults and I have the highest respect for service members, my dad is a Vietnam veteran. I mean't no disrespect to you or any other adults, I apologize if you thought I did. All I mean is that airsoft shouldn't be completely banned for minors, but there should be a release form for the legal parents or guardian to sign, and if an airsofter is under 18 they should have to take an airsoft safety test/course before being allowed on the field.
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Can you please stop referring you your school grade God damn it. It's age that's the issue.
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I'm referring to grade instead of age to account for minors who skip grades, who fail grades, and drop-outs.
EDIT: I'll quit while I'm behind
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Wait, ferrari. Are you calling me a dumb 8th grader?
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Most are, there are exceptions of course. You are using proper grammar, you are an exception. :D
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Wait, ferrari. Are you calling me a dumb 8th grader?
I am you assclown.....
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Not 8th grade. [-X :D
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Thanks ferrari, anyways i'm replying to bump the topic. Bump!
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hmmmm. this thread is stickied... I dont think it needs a bump
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hmmmm. this thread is stickied... I dont think it needs a bump
Lulz.
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hmmmm. this thread is stickied... I dont think it needs a bump
Lulz.
+1
Simple way to think about it for minors. Airsoft is like any major sport you see on tv or what ever you watch. You sure as hell dont see some high school football player back talking to a NFL player regarding the ways to play football. so just suck it up, ask questions(unless a 3 year old could figure it out) try and do things right and that way when you become an adult the sport will still be here as it is.
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Twitchy, to reply to your post if might be hard for most minors (dumb 8th graders) to understand the laws but it's not that hard for all of us (minors, not 8th graders). Playing in the middle of the street, pretty stupid (8th graders). Range test and plinking in the backyard, not so stupid(me, most 10th graders and above).
No, you got it fucking wrong. I am going to put this as easily as I can because a lot of kids can't seem to understand what adults say. It isn't your age or maturity level; it's how much the people you play with respect you (not to say that the two aren't related or don't have any your respect level). You can be the most mature person on the Earth and still be an idiot or a shitty player (maybe that's why women don't play often...). I would play with a five-year-old if he played honestly, competitively, smartly, and if he didn't have hissy fits if he got shot unepectedly. I have earned the respect of a few older people here and in turn have been personally asked to play with them on certain occasions.
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Well since this topic is "stickied" I guess I just want to say 2 things...
1) I am also a very respected player on my team, and secretly(not telling tj) I actually have more leadership power than him because he cheats a lot.
8 on 4, OOPS I WIN!
2) It's almost summer, which means a lot of kids have nothing to do. I, on the other hand, golf a lot in the summer so 110 degrees is nothing! I have a little feeling that this summer might be my one chance to dominate the game amongst my team! Oh and if you are wondering, not all 8th graders(ehem me) are stupid, but I agree 3/4 of them are. So go ahead and say 8th graders are stupid, but in a few months I'll be a 9th grader(freshman)! booyaa!
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I am also a very respected player on my team
And because you don't play with this board's adult members, you aren't respected by them.
Your team/friends, however, will always be happy to play with you and they won't exclude you.
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I slap fat kids is right, I belive the only way to gain respect from these guys is to play with them to show them you aren't just some retard teenager haha.
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What the holyfuck is "leadership power" ??? Time to put the bat belt and comic books away dude....
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I can't believe this is still being talked about.
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I can't believe this is still being talked about.
+1
Leadership powers.....ACTIVATE!!!!!
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I can't believe this is still being talked about.
This will always go on, it's a sticky. And taking about how minors are bad on the internet doesn't really paint a picture, you can't really make a truly informed decision until you play a game with a variety of minors in all tactical, skill, and respect levels.
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I can't believe this is still being talked about.
This will always go on, it's a sticky. And taking about how minors are bad on the internet doesn't really paint a picture, you can't really make a truly informed decision until you play a game with a variety of minors in all tactical, skill, and respect levels.
No, actually, the way they behave and carry themselves on this forum pretty accurately reflects how they behave off it. Although they usually hold back a bit more for fear of getting hurt.
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Well since this topic is "stickied" I guess I just want to say 2 things...
1) I am also a very respected player on my team, and secretly(not telling tj) I actually have more leadership power than him because he cheats a lot.
8 on 4, OOPS I WIN!
2) It's almost summer, which means a lot of kids have nothing to do. I, on the other hand, golf a lot in the summer so 110 degrees is nothing! I have a little feeling that this summer might be my one chance to dominate the game amongst my team! Oh and if you are wondering, not all 8th graders(ehem me) are stupid, but I agree 3/4 of them are. So go ahead and say 8th graders are stupid, but in a few months I'll be a 9th grader(freshman)! booyaa!
Trust me...stop posting. They'll rip you apart on these boards. You keep giving them a reason to bring you down. Anything you think of saying should be locked in your skull and saved for later. Just cruise the boards and attempt to hold back your thoughts and feelings.
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okay