Airsoft Arizona

Off-Topic Forums => Real Firearms => Topic started by: Greg on January 21, 2004, 07:59:58 PM

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Post by: Greg on January 21, 2004, 07:59:58 PM: I would still rather have an M16A4 with an ACOG. (That's in the same issue ;-)
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Post by: azsarge on January 21, 2004, 09:36:32 PM: I have that issue, but haven't gotten past the cool pics of SF in the poppy fields.

I think the XM8 is a bit too "euro-stylin'". It's FUGLY! I know you think the same Hector, come on and back me up here buddy!
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Post by: Raven1 on January 22, 2004, 07:33:07 AM: XM-8 is So Damn Ugly it's a "Modern Art Masterpiece!"

M-16 is the Gold Standard of @$$ Kicking Cool Good Looks, the more it's modded, the better it gets,,,
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Post by: azsarge on January 22, 2004, 10:16:49 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raven1
 XM-8 is So Damn Ugly it's a "Modern Art Masterpiece!"

M-16 is the Gold Standard of @$$ Kicking Cool Good Looks, the more it's modded, the better it gets,,,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Pure poetry!
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Post by: yellowmonkey on January 22, 2004, 05:08:38 PM: I have always felt that the XM-8 had a certian European styling (which I do not particularly care for), but if the XM8 out-shines the m16 then why not go for it? H&K has been detailing the love that the military has had for the XM8 so far, so it seems to me that the space age look of the xm8 is probably the look for our modern military. Someone had posted in a forum before about how all our new weapons look like they did in the cheap sci-fi movies... but it's true, we have reached that point. As for all of your preferances and opinions, I cannot say, but if all else fails in the field, you can probably break the XM8 in half and use it as a club. [:)]
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Post by: azsarge on January 22, 2004, 07:31:59 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by yellowmonkey
 ...but if the XM8 out-shines the m16 then why not go for it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Because the only reason to replace the M16 would be to use a different cartridge. I frankly see this as a huge logistics mess, with little or no improvement. Sure, the Army wants to move into the new century...but if we have the latest, high-tech laser rifle out there, and the enemy uses AK's and knock's us down, I don't see how that is better.

Cha-ching, goes the 2 pennies.
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Post by: yellowmonkey on January 22, 2004, 07:59:10 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azsarge
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by yellowmonkey
 ...but if the XM8 out-shines the m16 then why not go for it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Because the only reason to replace the M16 would be to use a different cartridge. I frankly see this as a huge logistics mess, with little or no improvement. Sure, the Army wants to move into the new century...but if we have the latest, high-tech laser rifle out there, and the enemy uses AK's and knock's us down, I don't see how that is better.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But haven't most of the enemy encounters in our new war against terror been under 100 meters? The way I see it power isn't a big issue here. I know about the stories that say "we hit the guy with our m16, but he didn't go down." I think that's mostly crap... I don't care if you get hit by a .22 or a .308, you're going down if you don't have good protection. I can see in some rare cases how it might be more effectice to have a powerful weapon, like an AK using comie rounds, but you probably aren't going to need that in Bhagdad and most of the AK toting camel jockeys don't have body armor (to the best of my knowledge). I guess over all, military weapons are becoming more application suited. You use the right weapon for the right job. It just so happens that the XM8 seems to work better for the applications it has in places like Iraq. I don't think the XM8 will ever fully replace the expandable m16's, but XM8's have their strong points where the m16's lack in functionality. There is no reason the military shouldn't use the XM8's when they are able to do the best job. The reason the M16 is so beloved is because it is so versitile, and it will probably be one of the most versitile weapons of the time... still times are changing. What do you think the people said when the military adopted the AR-10? It must seem strange, but the new XM8's are part of the changing face of weapons.
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Post by: azsarge on January 22, 2004, 10:34:30 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by yellowmonkey
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azsarge
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by yellowmonkey
 ...but if the XM8 out-shines the m16 then why not go for it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Because the only reason to replace the M16 would be to use a different cartridge. I frankly see this as a huge logistics mess, with little or no improvement. Sure, the Army wants to move into the new century...but if we have the latest, high-tech laser rifle out there, and the enemy uses AK's and knock's us down, I don't see how that is better.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But haven't most of the enemy encounters in our new war against terror been under 100 meters? The way I see it power isn't a big issue here. I know about the stories that say "we hit the guy with our m16, but he didn't go down." I think that's mostly crap... I don't care if you get hit by a .22 or a .308, you're going down if you don't have good protection. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Both you and I lack actual combat experience, so the argument is pointless. However, I feel it necessary to correct you on one small detail as mentioned above. They don't always go down quick enough. If a guy is a direct threat to you, meaning he's firing at you, or sees you, and is preparing to fire, he is amped up on adrenaline. Shooting him with a smaller caliber round will most likely slow him down, but he might be able to get off a few more rounds in your direction. Knocking him on his ass with a M1A or M14 will stop that business right here and now! An AK does the trick as well. We can get into muzzle velocities, round grains, barrel twist, engagement distances, tmperature variances, and all other kinds of crap. Let's not! The simple fact is that neither one of us KNOWS what we're talking about except what we read, or what people tell us. The FACT is that I personally don't see the need to replace the M16 or M4, and I also THINK the XM8 is ugly! Now keep in mind that my opinion (or yours) holds no weight when we talk about fact, so lets remember that. Cheers
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Post by: RickEJ6 on January 23, 2004, 07:20:12 AM: Oh yeah, the army is reissuing the M14 as the M21 to one man in every infantry squad. (According to my Sgt.) He said the armys rational is that every squad needs to have a guy that plays a more dedicated "sniper" type roll that can also provide support fire at range. Rick
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Post by: leakingpen on January 23, 2004, 09:15:22 AM: well, as you said, most all any of us can talk about is what we;ve read and been told about. everything i've read says that the military is moving towards urban combat. in which case, range is less important.
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Post by: azsarge on January 23, 2004, 09:42:31 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RickEJ6
 Oh yeah, the army is reissuing the M14 as the M21 to one man in every infantry squad. (According to my Sgt.) He said the armys rational is that every squad needs to have a guy that plays a more dedicated "sniper" type roll that can also provide support fire at range. Rick
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep, they call it "Designated Marksman". They are even purchasing off-the-shelf Springfield M1A's to fill the role. The M21 is not widely used (contrary to belief), and not many units use them, save for a few SOF units. The M1A's have worked their way into the Corps, and Army Infantry units.
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Post by: yellowmonkey on January 23, 2004, 03:27:44 PM: Azsarge you are right about it all, plus every situation is different; personally, I hope I never have to find out if my weapon will stop somebody... but there is still that part of me that wants to blow other things up. [:D]
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Post by: Legs on January 26, 2004, 12:28:05 PM: There is another reason to replace the M16 family and it's well known. A larger caliber is needed and we should never have dropped down as small as we did,yes, but there is also the issue of reliability. Though a good target rifle the M16 has PROVEN itself to be less reliable than the opposition. I'm not advocating a US AK variant, but surely we can develop something better. The XM8 is a gimmick, but if it fires more reliably it'll find a home. Better to have the Army look to American builders for our guns, such as Robinson. They have slated a .308 version of their rifles. They are both more reliable than M16s and more comfortable, and they are US made.
Dumb debate, really...but you know me. Must bash the M16 when possible...
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Post by: RickEJ6 on January 26, 2004, 12:35:08 PM: Well, again not goin from my experience, but from my recruiter S/SGT West's experience in Russia,(he is a scout sniper in the army) that the issue AKs over there, even when completly cleaned up, suffered jams much more frequently than the US guys and their dirty M-4s. Again, I have had no hands on comparison of the 2 (however, Ive never had a M16 malfunction on me, except due to bad ammo) But I trust S/SGT West's comparison of the 2 rifles. Rick
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Post by: Raven1 on January 26, 2004, 02:37:20 PM: Oh Yeah, I Like Ford better than Chevy! As far as Chevy's are concerned on a scale of 1 - 10, YOU SUCK! [:P]
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Post by: Legs on February 11, 2004, 09:02:47 AM: Not an AK in the world can ever be made to be less reliable than an M16 variant in function. The designs make that impossible.
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Post by: Raith on February 11, 2004, 10:27:54 PM: Supposedly, HK is unveiling its M4 at the SHOT show this weekend. So there will be probably be some information/photos about this next week. HK might also be showing its entry into the SCAR rifle competition, which should be, if nothing else, fun to look at.
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Post by: azsarge on February 11, 2004, 10:39:38 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raith
 Supposedly, HK is unveiling its M4 at the SHOT show this weekend. So there will be probably be some information/photos about this next week. HK might also be showing its entry into the SCAR rifle competition, which should be, if nothing else, fun to look at.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are there any pics of SCAR entries so far? As of late I have only heard about the program, and proposed entries. Definitley a fascinating program, and I cannot wait to get my paws on an airsoft version of whatever rifle wins. [:P]HA!! (I know, I know)
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Post by: Raith on February 13, 2004, 12:06:43 AM: http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE ... es/m4.html (http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/rifles-carbines/m4.html)

No definitive decision has been as yet made to offer the HKM4 or its components for commercial or retail purchase.

What, they don't like money?
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Post by: azsarge on February 13, 2004, 12:28:49 AM: Das ist sehr schmutzig!
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/m4yumaburst.jpg
Hans sez: "Dieses Ding ist schrecklich! Ich mag meinen plastik G36 viel besser. Aber es ist das verfluchte erotische Aussehen."

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Additional ongoing work:

â€¢ Monolithic upper receiver with integral Rail Adapter System
[...]
â€¢ HK free-floating modular rail system
[...]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

NOTE: Below link is from MilitaryMorons.com

I wonder if they will base any part of the design on the Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT) Modular Rail Platform (MRP)http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/img/mrp9.jpg. I also wonder what the "free-floating modular rail system" will add to the already swamped market of rail systems. Between A.R.M.S. and KAC, I am curious as to what another non-monolithic system can accomplish that hasn't already been. I can't wait to find out!
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Post by: Raven1 on February 13, 2004, 05:40:24 PM: Well I have always liked the look of a modded M4. If HK is introducing this to the civy world then boys, this is my new rifle!
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Post by: Legs on February 13, 2004, 07:30:08 PM: What I don't get is that if HK had set out to build a better M4, why the FREAK does it retain the forward assist knob?!!! That abomination exists BECAUSE of the flaws in the rifle, not as an enhancement. HK is looking at $$$ here and nothing more, which is to say, they've sold out. They make some of the world's finest arms, and now this...
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Post by: azsarge on February 13, 2004, 07:39:46 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Legs
 What I don't get is that if HK had set out to build a better M4, why the FREAK does it retain the forward assist knob?!!! That abomination exists BECAUSE of the flaws in the rifle, not as an enhancement. HK is looking at $$$ here and nothing more, which is to say, they've sold out. They make some of the world's finest arms, and now this...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In my 21 years on the blue planet, I have NEVER met a guy that completely loathes a particular weapon system as much as you, Kyle. It is a testament to your complete devotion to the firearms you love. Cheers, fellow![;)]

With regards to the forward assist knob, I am guessing the inclusion of it was madated by HK customer for this weapon>>the US. Without mentioning parts commonality and the like, the forward assist knob is familiar sight on this rifle. I am confused by this however...the HKM4 is an entry into the SCAR program. The very program that is intended to find a replacement for the M4/M16 series for use by US SOF. [?]

No matter what anyone says, this thing has got that "woo woo"! Now, if they would only lose the gawd-awful trades on every possible surface of the rifle...
A simple red "HK" would do it for me, or even the presence of the red and white trigger group, a dead HK giveaway.
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Post by: Raith on February 13, 2004, 08:35:11 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azsarge
 ...the HKM4 is an entry into the SCAR program. The very program that is intended to find a replacement for the M4/M16 series for use by US SOF. [?]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't think their M4 is their entry into the SCAR comp and neither is the XM8, but I think both meet the requirements.
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Post by: Pancho on February 13, 2004, 10:02:07 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azsarge
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Legs
 What I don't get is that if HK had set out to build a better M4, why the FREAK does it retain the forward assist knob?!!! That abomination exists BECAUSE of the flaws in the rifle, not as an enhancement. HK is looking at $$$ here and nothing more, which is to say, they've sold out. They make some of the world's finest arms, and now this...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In my 21 years on the blue planet, I have NEVER met a guy that completely loathes a particular weapon system as much as you, Kyle. It is a testament to your complete devotion to the firearms you love. Cheers, fellow![;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good luck finding a firearm that he ACTUALLY LOVES! For more than a month or two, anyway! LOL! Love ya Kyle!! [:P]
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Post by: azsarge on February 14, 2004, 01:07:56 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pancho
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azsarge
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Legs
 What I don't get is that if HK had set out to build a better M4, why the FREAK does it retain the forward assist knob?!!! That abomination exists BECAUSE of the flaws in the rifle, not as an enhancement. HK is looking at $$$ here and nothing more, which is to say, they've sold out. They make some of the world's finest arms, and now this...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In my 21 years on the blue planet, I have NEVER met a guy that completely loathes a particular weapon system as much as you, Kyle. It is a testament to your complete devotion to the firearms you love. Cheers, fellow![;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good luck finding a firearm that he ACTUALLY LOVES! For more than a month or two, anyway! LOL! Love ya Kyle!! [:P]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Panch, congrats on joining the Commie Club! 5 red stars means a 10% off discount to all AA game admissions.
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Post by: Legs on February 14, 2004, 08:37:42 AM: I don't loathe the M16 family. I compliment the line often. What I do loathe is the love affair so many others have with it. It is an inferior rifle no matter how many soldiers carry it. It's in the arsenal because of money, not quality. It's a comfortable and cool-looking target rifle. It is not anywhere near the category of the AK for reliability in combat conditions, or most other rifles used across the globe. Tthe forward assist is on the gun because of LOADING PROBLEMS. I don't care how common in appearance it is. If HK set out to make an M4, they apparently made an M4. That's what fails to impress me. A few mods to the upper would not have altered the look that much but could have resulted in fantastic reliability and a more original profile. All HK did is make another clone. I read the review and the claims about better gas systems, etc. It retains the forward assist...which doesn't exist on any other combat rifle...and that says all I need to know.
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Post by: Pancho on February 14, 2004, 09:28:16 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azsarge
 Panch, congrats on joining the Commie Club! 5 red stars means a 10% off discount to all AA game admissions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Thank you, thank you <bows>

Does anyone have any pictures of this HK M4?
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Post by: Raith on February 14, 2004, 10:55:04 AM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pancho
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azsarge
 Panch, congrats on joining the Commie Club! 5 red stars means a 10% off discount to all AA game admissions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Thank you, thank you <bows>

Does anyone have any pictures of this HK M4?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Go to the link I posted earlier, Frank, there are photos on the HK website.
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Post by: Pancho on February 14, 2004, 11:16:22 AM: Sorry...musta missed it!
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Post by: Raven1 on February 14, 2004, 12:12:57 PM: Come'on Kyle Come to The Dark Side!!

HK does make the finest arms in the world and now they make the finest M4 in the world too! Plus it is inferior no more with all of the patented HK designs incorporated into the rifle.

Now you have the cool looks, ultra reliability, HK barrel accuracy/resiliency and with the new magazine design it doesn't care what ammo you feed it. This thing is like Rush Limbaugh at the drug store counter begging for another pill to spit out its barrel.

Kyle, I disagree with you saying HK made another clone! All of the other makers do not have HK's patented intellectual property that makes HK the Gold Standard in weapons when the proverbial ass needs kicking!

I want one so bad it's making me feel funny, you know, Down There!!
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Post by: Airsofter1 on February 14, 2004, 12:13:00 PM: The forward assist knob exists as an function of redundancy. Having one placed on most reliable weapon in the world would not be a bad idea. Even if you never had to use it it is nice to know that its there if you had to. In combat you just never know what could happen!
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Post by: azsarge on February 14, 2004, 12:26:07 PM: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Raven1
 Come'on Kyle Come to The Dark Side!!

HK does make the finest arms in the world and now they make the finest M4 in the world too! Plus it is inferior no more with all of the patented HK designs incorporated into the rifle.

Now you have the cool looks, ultra reliability, HK barrel accuracy/resiliency and with the new magazine design it doesn't care what ammo you feed it. This thing is like Rush Limbaugh at the drug store counter begging for another pill to spit out its barrel.

Kyle, I disagree with you saying HK made another clone! All of the other makers do not have HK's patented intellectual property that makes HK the Gold Standard in weapons when the proverbial ass needs kicking!

I want one so bad it's making me feel funny, you know, Down There!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Like when you climb the rope in gym class?

Just watch, slowly they will release "mods" to this rifle that will slowly turn it into a G36. It's an HK conspiracy, and I will have no part of it.

Mein Gewehr ist mein Gewehr, versuchen Sie nicht, es zu Ã¤ndern! Das wird mich sehr bÃ¶se machen, und Sie mÃ¶chten mich nicht, wenn ich bÃ¶se bin. KOMPLOTT!
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Post by: Raven1 on February 14, 2004, 03:33:29 PM: Exactly, Christian! But not in that weird sort of way when you see the kid in class who climbs all the way to the top, and just keeps climbing!

Conspiracy nothing, finally an accurate, durable, stake your life on it reliable M4! It's what it should have been from the beginning and it's finally here! What's wrong with you people, it's like we have been waiting around for it for so long and now that it's here people don't believe it or want to accept it.

I Want My HK M4 People! M4 is still an an M4, just because Chevy is made in Mexico doesn't mean it's still not American as warm apple pie! And besides Chevy started in America as a French Company! "Chevrolet," Hello people, wake up now!

So don't give me that crap, hypocrits watching Japanese televisions, driving a European car, dating a Mexican girl friend over dinner at an Chinese restaurant, handing her French chocolates while wearing your designer Italian loafers!

Sad bunch of Suckas!!
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Post by: Pancho on February 14, 2004, 04:58:35 PM: Maybe I am missing something here, but it just looks like a short-barrelled M4 w/ picatinny rails all over the place. Perhaps being made by HK is going to make it...what? more reliable? We could argue that point til the cows come home...but I think that the M4 is already a very reliable weapon...IF you like the round. They have a tendency to be finicky as to what ammo they'll take, but I have found that to be largely a characteristic of who made the upper..specifically, the barrel.

I am neither a huge fan of the family, nor an opponent to it. I do like the weapon for some things..but in reality, it is a barely adequate battle rifle, that needs a larger, more potent round to be TRULY effective. I've read too many reports from every engagement since Vietnam that the 5.56 round is not effective in certain battle situations. Soldiers know what they need more than politicians do.
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Post by: Raven1 on February 14, 2004, 06:28:54 PM: Just talking about the engineering and patented designs HK has! Because of the HK intellectual property the rifle is infinitely more reliable! There is no need for debate because it would be a short one, just go with the facts of the engineering alone.

1.) Cold hammered steel barrel and twisted to give it it's rifling, no heating here people so the brittleness typical of molecular change in the atomic structure of carbon in the steel is not present, again the engineering alone allows it to shoot ANY Ammunition, with ANY Length Barrel with out affecting performance, greatly increases accuracy over sustained usage since the steel does not degrade like that characteristic of the heat forging process. (HK Proprietary)

2.) Hardened steel bolt, piston actuated, short stroke, refined bolt and lugs, smoother/positive operation, combined with an improved buffer spring/piston design which is smaller and more robust BY Design (HK Proprietary)

3.) HK gas system that exhausts forward and away, cooler operation, less wear-again because the exhaust gas tube has been eliminated, so it will fire under water, full of water or mud just like any other HK. (HK Proprietary)

4.) Famous HK trigger group

5.) Steel magazine that has been redesigned for optimum feeding

Standard HK Modularity, ease of maintenance, interchangable componentry and soon to be added an HK engineered integrated optical sight system, scope system and redundant steel sights for back up.

Come on People! What's not to be excited about, reach for it and it work's HK reliabilty proven over and over again! This thing will shoot 20,000 rounds with out cleaning, in extreme condtions, with all types of ammo with all lengths of barrels and with out incident and still be accurate.

The round is a whole seperate issue entirely! But now that the DESIGN is sound and proven they can move onto the projectile!
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Post by: Legs on February 14, 2004, 08:21:42 PM: I love Hector. Always have. That's all.

PS I agree with the theory of the above, amiguito. I'm just very, very skeptical. The body HAS to have been changed inorder to incorporate such radical differences, especially in the gas system...and there are no visible cosmetic differences. The guts of the AR/M4 are TIGHT, and that leaves no room for playing around in that space. I love HK and they are THE standard for high end rifles in the world, though the FAL and the SIG rifles stand on firm ground as well, but this still bothers me.
I'll clarify three things for those of you who think I'm unpleaseable with guns. (Is that even a word?)
There are three guns I want desperately to love. The AR/M4 (line), the 1911 line, and the Glock (line). I have yet to be able to trust any of them with my life because of inherent malfunctions. Don't bother flaming me, fans of the above...I've owned far too many guns and fired far too many rounds to be convinced that I'm wrong. I'm reflecting on my own experience here, which is more useful to me than any book data, etc. I love everything about the AR15 and the 1911 EXCEPT for their consistency in jamming. And the Glock...I just want to like it because it has proimise. Too much there that I don't like to get into right now. My point is that if someone were to actually make any of the above in a functional format, I'd be the biggest fan. I do not believe that it can be done without cosmetic changes, though, which would show the proof of the internal mods. Especially, again, in the area of the M4s horrible gas system. I WANT a reliable M4. I just don't see how it can be done without changing the body itself.
And for the forward assist...I have owned almost every combat rifle made, or at least fired them enough to have this to say...I've never needed to force a round into battery in anything but an AR15, and even then, it never worked. Adding one here, especially if the gun is as good as HK is claiming, is like setting a bucket of water next to a new toilet with a sign that says, "Don't worry...it'll flush when you depress the lever, but just in case..." I like guns that don't "leave the poop floating" after I've depressed the lever...

I'll hope, but I doubt. In the case of the M4, it hasn't earned my trust in advance...even one made by HK.
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Post by: Pancho on February 15, 2004, 03:31:25 AM: Hector, you'd make a GREAT salesman! Over half of 'selling' is:
A) Being excited
& B) Selling the "sizzle"

You certainly can do both of these regarding something that you are passionate about.

After I posted, I reread the article, and you are right. There appears to be some significant changes. Changes for the better, no doubt. Now lets see them work on the round issue!

Kyle: "guns that don't leave the poop floating"?? LOL, you have a way with words, my friend!
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Post by: Raven1 on February 16, 2004, 10:00:12 AM: No flames directed at anyone.

Just Really Geeked about the prospect of owning this rifle!
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Post by: Legs on February 16, 2004, 02:01:29 PM: If you meant me, Hector, none taken and none intended either. It might surprise you to know just how much I want this to be legit as well. I love the rifle and if they'll build one that works better and they'll offer it to us poor civie types, I'll throw in for one with the rest of you.

Fun debate, though!
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Post by: Raven1 on February 16, 2004, 03:13:54 PM: Not directed towards anyone in particular, especially you Kyle.

It's just that In can barely contain my excitement, HK is legit and their reputation precedes them. That is why I am supremely confident that this is not a "sell out" weapon to make a boat load of cash! The have a world renowned reputation at stake and definitely know that "All eyes are on us!" So when they made this rifle, the made it the HK, the only way to make an M4 when compromise is not in your vocabulary!

That is why ( in my opinion ) HK commands the benefit of the doubt! Did I Mention How Geeked I Am About This Rifle!!
Title: HK-M4
Post by: Raven1 on January 21, 2004, 06:52:36 PM: This months (February) Solder of Fortune Magazine has an article on the XM-8 replacing the M-16 family of rifles. You will note that the very last paragraph of the article has mention of an HK Re-Design of the M4 upper receiver based on the G36 upper receiver that is said to be a direct "Drop In" replacement! And goes on to mention that thus far HK has been extremely tight lipped about this endeavor! So run on down to the Barnes & Noble (That's a book store TAZ) pick up the issue and check it out!