Airsoft Arizona

General Airsoft Arizona => General Airsoft Discussion => Topic started by: nukeduster on June 29, 2012, 11:08:20 AM

Title: Blind Firing
Post by: nukeduster on June 29, 2012, 11:08:20 AM
Blind firing rules are there for safety sake. If you cannot see your target you shouldn't just blindly spray and pray because of the risk of hurting someone if they happen to be right at the end of your barrel around the corner from you.

So using a product like this, I'm curious how many people would have a problem with it? My vote is, it creates a safe way to use a weapon at odd firing angles and therefore should be allowed at games. I plan on using one on my upcoming real steel build.

Curious what others think?

http://www.botachtactical.com/acan.html (http://www.botachtactical.com/acan.html)
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: Red Devil on June 29, 2012, 11:20:08 AM
For airsoft I think its a waste of money. I kniw that you can't use them at the big games like lion claws. Just my 2cents
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: theFlyingTrumpet on June 29, 2012, 11:22:00 AM
That is awesome. A little pricy for a simple prism made of BK7, but the concept sure is sweet. I personally wouldn't have a problem with anyone using one of these at a game. Botach is a great site though!
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: Paradox on June 29, 2012, 11:24:58 AM
I wouldn't have a problem with them at a Phantom game. As long as it's mentioned at the Chrono Station.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: bailey5671 on June 29, 2012, 11:26:01 AM
Its a pretty cheap way to get kills if you ask me.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: Paradox on June 29, 2012, 11:35:41 AM
Its a pretty cheap way to get kills if you ask me.

IMO Play smarter not harder. This is about out whiting your opponents. Out flank and out maneuver.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: xTanTricK on June 29, 2012, 12:01:52 PM
I think spazz has something similiar to that and it was on his gun at one of the Fightertown night games, not sure if he used it though.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: deathbydanish on June 29, 2012, 12:18:04 PM
Oh man for $249.00 I hope that thing can deal with a worst case scenario BB hit, i.e. being hit straight on in the lens portion from nearly point blank range.   
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: Fresnel on June 29, 2012, 12:25:28 PM
Oh man for $249.00 I hope that thing can deal with a worst case scenario BB hit, i.e. being hit straight on in the lens portion from nearly point blank range.
There's an airsoft version available for under $50, just FYI.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: theFlyingTrumpet on June 29, 2012, 12:29:03 PM
There's an airsoft version available for under $50, just FYI.

I would hope so. You can get BK7 prisms for $10. Link?
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: Fresnel on June 29, 2012, 12:39:31 PM
There's an airsoft version available for under $50, just FYI.

I would hope so. You can get BK7 prisms for $10. Link?
Here (http://www.greenbase.hk/list.asp?id=4129). Shipping will cost you a bit, but still way less than $250.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: spazz on June 29, 2012, 01:39:18 PM
i do have one of those that is on my m4. from the lil that i have used it i feell that it will take quite a bit of practice with it to get used to it. but they are great products. i plan on getting some when i do my next order.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: B1azeer on June 29, 2012, 02:15:12 PM
Call me a cheater if you want but if someone blind fires me I honestly don't go out...
Thats for the places where "Blind Fire" is very much against the rules.

I wouldn't have a problem with someone using this. Just a warning, others also feel the same way I do so a pre game notification of this device would be nice.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: ghosthollow53 on June 29, 2012, 02:18:30 PM
I actually like the idea. Its NOT blind firing, because you DO have a line of sight. You would know if somebody is at point blank range or far away. Its the same concept that surrounds the corner shot.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: Drmalan on June 29, 2012, 03:01:44 PM
For airsoft I think its a waste of money. I kniw that you can't use them at the big games like lion claws. Just my 2cents

They have airsoft quality, airsoft prices version at ebair

This one is only 36.00 http://www.shootercbgear.com/product_info.php?products_id=3602 (http://www.shootercbgear.com/product_info.php?products_id=3602)
 and there is a review on airsoft canada that was very positive
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: deathbydanish on June 29, 2012, 04:35:48 PM
I actually like the idea. Its NOT blind firing, because you DO have a line of sight. You would know if somebody is at point blank range or far away. Its the same concept that surrounds the corner shot.

I don't think people would take offense when you explain it like that, they would probably call it cheap because the user would not have to expose himself in an exchange. In a regular face to face exchange, at least both sides have a fair chance to hit the other, with this I think people are calling it cheap because it gives the user the ability to fire and not worry about retaliation.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: ghosthollow53 on June 29, 2012, 04:49:03 PM
I actually like the idea. Its NOT blind firing, because you DO have a line of sight. You would know if somebody is at point blank range or far away. Its the same concept that surrounds the corner shot.

I don't think people would take offense when you explain it like that, they would probably call it cheap because the user would not have to expose himself in an exchange. In a regular face to face exchange, at least both sides have a fair chance to hit the other, with this I think people are calling it cheap because it gives the user the ability to fire and not worry about retaliation.
Then people would think that guns with a longer range than theirs are cheap, because they cant reach the shooter but they can be shot. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: -MAD- SARGE on June 29, 2012, 05:03:06 PM
I just can't see that a person can judge distance accordingly through a small mirror, hell most people can't judge distance correctly with both eyes.  Also as someone has mentioned, it's not easy to utilize and requires practice.  Personally I see limited benificial use in some CQB searching aspects, but once the the fire fight ensues I feel you will be hard pressed to use it effectively. Boils down to, if you can't use it effectively, accidents are likely to happen. 

P.S.

As for real weapon use, if it were just as simple to place the sight on the target, then everyone would be a top shot. 
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: Dayton on June 29, 2012, 05:19:09 PM
If anybody uses one of these at a game I'm at, they better tell me first, otherwise I'm gonna call it blind fire. If you tell me first, I'd probably be ok with it, however, you better be real good at knowing when your gun gets hit with a bb, and call your hit.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: xXmusicimpactXx on June 29, 2012, 06:03:52 PM
While the idea is cool for the person using it, I see this creating many potential problems on the field.

"No blindfiring!"
"I'm not, I have an AccuTact!"
"A what? You're still cheating!"

Not to mention giving refs a whole other headache to deal with on the field as well.

As far as on real steel, I agree with -MAD- SARGE. Being an avid AR-15 shooter myself, I know you wouldn't really be able to accurately hit anything using a device like that much past a couple feet, at least not without some serious training.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: spazz on June 29, 2012, 08:22:02 PM
i play with mine all the time and im still not compleatly used to it.
im a good shot and i find it a lil hard to put rounds on target with any kind of speed.
it will take lots of practice to anywhere proficient enough to make it useable in a game.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: deathbydanish on June 29, 2012, 09:15:15 PM
I actually like the idea. Its NOT blind firing, because you DO have a line of sight. You would know if somebody is at point blank range or far away. Its the same concept that surrounds the corner shot.

I don't think people would take offense when you explain it like that, they would probably call it cheap because the user would not have to expose himself in an exchange. In a regular face to face exchange, at least both sides have a fair chance to hit the other, with this I think people are calling it cheap because it gives the user the ability to fire and not worry about retaliation.
Then people would think that guns with a longer range than theirs are cheap, because they cant reach the shooter but they can be shot. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages.

That's a good example, but not exactly in line with the reality, most engagement distances will not be at the maximum range of even a well tuned airsoft gun, they're usually much closer for the simple fact that as madsarge said, most people can't judge distance. Let's face it, if all airsoft engagements were at the maximum distance of well tuned airsoft guns, that's more reason for cheaters or shady players to not call their hits, the more distance you have, the more doubt can be raised, after all, can you see a 6mm hit a 6'0 target at over 300 feet away? Also take into consideration that at maximum range if that BB hits gear it'll probably hit with the energy of a baby fart, you could be an honest player and not even feel that if you weren't paying attention.

I tend to think in terms of worst case scenarios, and besides the one I mentioned where a straight shot hits the lens at nearly point blank range, I think there's also the potential for cheating with this. Gun hits could be cast into doubt with sufficient distance and the simple fact that someone using this could easily say, I didn't see or feel the hit on their gun, then in turn not call it.

From a practicality standpoint, there might be a handful of people here who could be dedicated enough to practice with this enough to be proficient, but lets not kid ourselves here, 99% of the people here would never really use this to its fullest potential. Besides if you really were a LEO/operator, the real solution would be to use CornerShot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornershot) :p

For the money, I think a better investment would be more Thunder Bs, its not like the walls in a CQB arena are thick, you can hear people on the other side, and its way easier to just throw a Thunder B into their room than it is to try to engage someone with an attachment that you probably won't use proficiently.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: spazz on June 29, 2012, 10:26:15 PM
the other problem with gun hits is that i dont think vangard or tempe paintball or fighter town count gun hits as an out.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: xXmusicimpactXx on June 29, 2012, 11:01:28 PM
the other problem with gun hits is that i dont think vangard or tempe paintball or fighter town count gun hits as an out.
Last time I was at Vanguard, their running policy was "It's up to the player." Personally I would've liked a more definitive answer, as it would've netted me a few more confirmed outs that night haha.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: Jason@TempePB on June 30, 2012, 12:42:04 AM
Spazz is correct we don't count gun hits yet this may change, as I have asked this question to a few people and their answer has been " No, most people do not carry side arms, so we don't count them " now if everyone " EXPERIENCED " said we are counting gun hits today in that group then yes gun hits will count as for the " Rentals " we don't count the gun hit because we want to make sure that they get enough play time as you guys do also.

I like the general concept of this attachement but as someone posted the link corner shot is most ideal but this is for the LEO/Opperators.

Price wise holy balls for a piece of glass lets have a shop class I'm sure someone on here is a shop teacher or fabricator and can host this if everyone brings him or her a case of their favorite brew or rootbeer for those not of age.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: theFlyingTrumpet on June 30, 2012, 01:05:59 AM
Well this "anglesight" is a little more complicated than a block of normal glass. It's designed with two different pieces of triangular glass that must be extremely flat to match up perfectly with the help of a special glue in between. Basically if you look through the anglesight from behind the red dot you will see strait through as if its plain glass, but if you look through it from the side, it works as a mirror. Look up TIR (total internal reflection).

If you're going for realism, I like switching to a secondary weapon when your primary is hit, but hey if this were all about realism nobody would be complaining about blind fire. That's pretty realistic if you ask me.  ;)
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: xXmusicimpactXx on June 30, 2012, 01:39:42 AM
If you're going for realism, I like switching to a secondary weapon when your primary is hit, but hey if this were all about realism nobody would be complaining about blind fire. That's pretty realistic if you ask me.  ;)
Lol yes. Hell, sometimes I'll switch to my secondary anyways for breaching rooms and such, or when I'm defending a tight spot. Plus, I just like using it.

Now, as far as the gun hits, they SHOULD count as a kill if say, someone's standing up with their rifle hanging on their torso from a 1-point sling. If the BB hits the gun where it CLEARLY would've hit the person's body were it not for the gun hanging there, I think that counts. I always call myself out according to that rule, anyways. Otherwise we could all use our guns as invincible BB blocking shields, which could potentially ruin the game.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: spazz on June 30, 2012, 08:41:19 AM
Well this "anglesight" is a little more complicated than a block of normal glass. It's designed with two different pieces of triangular glass that must be extremely flat to match up perfectly with the help of a special glue in between. Basically if you look through the anglesight from behind the red dot you will see strait through as if its plain glass, but if you look through it from the side, it works as a mirror. Look up TIR (total internal reflection).

i dont know about the real steel accutact version, but my acm one that i have at the house doesnt have any glue anywere in it.
it is just the 2 pieces of glass in a black housing.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: theFlyingTrumpet on June 30, 2012, 01:09:36 PM
i dont know about the real steel accutact version, but my acm one that i have at the house doesnt have any glue anywere in it.
it is just the 2 pieces of glass in a black housing.

Hmm I could be wrong then... I made some assumptions with the optics knowledge I have learned from school. That would be cool to check out then. I like seeing how things work.  :)
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: ReaperThanatos on June 30, 2012, 03:14:55 PM
think about it this way, by using that you make it so that everyone isnt having fun. Just you. now look at supply and demand. What if EVERYONE went a bought one of these? Nobody would be out, ever.

By looking for loopholes your taking away the fun in the game
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: spazz on June 30, 2012, 03:48:44 PM
think about it this way, by using that you make it so that everyone isnt having fun. Just you. now look at supply and demand. What if EVERYONE went a bought one of these? Nobody would be out, ever.

By looking for loopholes your taking away the fun in the game

the only ones that this product would help from being hit, would be the ones that learned how to use it properly.
all others it would hinder and get them killed, (personl experience).
and it would not stop any players that are agresive from being agresive.
useing this product on my gun only slowed me down a lil bit.
i can see this product as helping to cause damage to the users optics though. you are not compleatly behind cover when useing it.
you will have your hands and possibly arms exposed durring use and if your gun is the only thing you stick around corners your gun will get shot at and you take a higher risk of it a your optics getting hit.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: -MAD- SARGE on June 30, 2012, 09:31:37 PM
Besides the fact that utilizing the device effectively and safely will probably be a limiting factor in it's self, I also agree with consistency on the rules.  It's easier to control a game with consistent rules, i.e. no blind firing should be applied to everyone one, period.  Otherwise, it's too difficult to control and monitor who is allowed and not allowed to blind fire, which can lead to disputes.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: Dayton on July 01, 2012, 07:56:50 AM
Otherwise, it's too difficult to control and monitor who is allowed and not allowed to blind fire, which can lead to disputes.


Agreed
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: ReaperThanatos on July 05, 2012, 09:59:13 PM
I understood blind firing as leaning your gun out without your body and shooting. Just like they dont let you shoot through the cracks either
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: CaptainMoroni94 on July 05, 2012, 11:35:38 PM
I have a scar on my arm from the FIRST and LAST time that I ever tried blind fire. Personally (IF!) I had this sight I would use it for recon only not fireing around corners, but i carry a mirror for that.
Title: Re: Blind Firing
Post by: spazz on July 06, 2012, 08:58:51 AM
Just like they dont let you shoot through the cracks either.

lol, realy. when did that become a rule? as long as you can see your target through the crack then there is no problem shooting through a crack.