Airsoft Arizona
General Airsoft Arizona => General Airsoft Discussion => Topic started by: Surplus man on March 06, 2005, 01:26:13 AM
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where are good jungle or very green envornments to play in in the tucson area?
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where are good jungle or very green envornments to play in in the tucson area?
Top Secret... you need to find your own AO's. There are a couple listed.... but some aren't. Teams use them for training..
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Good Luck with finding one though, it's stinking hard to find one anywhere these days, cause most good places are private property, or something, (especially in Gilbert)
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We're kind of lucky Pima County has a website which has all the aerial photos, land ownership (private, BLM, State Trust, etc) shows major washes, roads, EVERYTHING. Makes looking for a new AO a lot easier.
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yea, it sucks. surplus man and i had this great place during the summer.... it was literally a jungle! great for summer because of all the vegetation. bamboo, a small creek running through, tall trees, tall grass. amazing. but then we got kicked out.
payed it a visit a few weeks ago, and the rain had devastated it. the creek which was usually almost still was about 100 feet wide and raging. everything was gone. but i think it probably goes through the same process each year and grows back.
i'm sure theres other places like it around where the santa cruz always has water.
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as memebers of satac, sniper wolf and i use sasco and missile tank but id like to find some good dense jungle for the team. satac is really good in open desert but only m79 grenadier, sniper and myself have had jungle experience. i think we need to train in that enviornment too.
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There is one kind of cool place out in Apache Junction right off of the US 60, and we used to quad there, but I've never tried to Airsoft, it really would be perfect.
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Perfect of not, you need to find out who owns it first. You are allowed to hunt, fish, hike, off-road, etc. On state trust land with a hunting license or a state trust land use permit. But NO airsofting, you get a criminal trespass charge if caught ($150 fine).
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So what are the chances, would you say, that the owner would let my friends and I airsoft on it?
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???? slim to none, if I owned the land I'd worry that somebody would get hurt and sue me. I'm still trying to find property right now in Pinal county, I wouldn't allow players under 18 to come out. Some people don't think thats fair, but fair or not is a LOT more insurance for people under 18yrs old.
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???? slim to none, if I owned the land I'd worry that somebody would get hurt and sue me. I'm still trying to find property right now in Pinal county, I wouldn't allow players under 18 to come out. Some people don't think thats fair, but fair or not is a LOT more insurance for people under 18yrs old.
waivers man... waivers. otherwise, you can't count ongetting any of the kids who, whether you like it or not, ARE the future of airsoft.
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Future or not, if I get sued its my future thats screwed. The only way to make sure it was the parent that signed the waiver, is to actually see them do it (i.e. show up at the event and sign it there). All I need is a mom or dad showing up pissed cause their kid got cut or something (like a busted tooth that happend to a member of SWAIRTAC). Everybody says their parent wouldn't do that.... unti they lose an eye.
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Yeah, it's a sad thing anymore, but when it comes to being sued, you can't possibly have enough coverage. That said, I think if you wanted to let younger players on, you not only would need to have some waivers, you would probably want to get yourself a lawyer to insure that the waiver is up to legal snuff, and have waivers be notarized.
As for insurance, if you have the above mentioned system in place, you probably wouldn't get get any major insurance penalties. If the land had a permanent play use, you could even require a one time safety briefing for everyone and keep those attendance logs on file.
When I was in Seattle some friends and I looked into buying some land for paintballing and private range use, so I have actually done a fair ammount of reading on this. It would be very cool if some folks could kick in for a chunk of land between phoenix and tuscon where permanent or semi-permanent structures could be built and such. Land is so inexpensive here...
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I've already contacted insurance companies about this, the cost to have approximatly 50players per week is $500 per month. IF all players are 18 or older. The other way to protect yourself is to form a LLC, but that is still no guarantee.
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eh, talk to bucket about this. he's done his fair share of research on it.
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I don't need to ask anybody about it... when I did my MBA I looked into it then. People have this attitude that nobody ever sues for airsoft, until you get hurt by somebody with MONEY, then they see $$$$ and will find a way to sue, there are plenty of lawyers out there just waiting.
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Well it'd be cool if someone set up like a businness where people could get memberships to play in an arena/area.
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Well it'd be cool if someone set up like a businness where people could get memberships to play in an arena/area.
There is already someone doing it. It is a long, painfull, expensive process. Hold your houses guys, there will be a place in the near future. ;)
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Sweet! Where's it going to be, and who's opening it!
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I cannot disclose that information.
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oh, well I'm still shaking with anticipation.
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I've been working on it for over 3 months. Insurance is easy, advertising, etc. The big pain in the butt is finding cheap land or a cheap warehouse. Everybody (including myself) figured there is LOTS of land in Arizona, and all you need is a crappy warehouse for CQB. A 10,000 sqr ft (which is the minium you'd need) which looks like it caught on fire at one point in south Tucson, wants $6k/mnth!!!! I'd like to open a place like this
www.airsoftcqb.com (http://www.airsoftcqb.com)
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There is someone else other than yourself Andy, don't you worry..I believe his quest is actually going pretty well..
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oooh
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id be nice to round up my sa-tac buddies and buy out a place like desert fox or something, a nice big inner county lot. we could build a big ol' fence and put in vegitation of our choice and obstacles. we could set up a waver system and say parents need to sign with a witness at the course present(if under 18). just a thought.
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Where, in Tuscon?
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yes please make it so us younger folks could come. :lol:
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yeah it tucson, hopefully. i would seeing as im a young'n myself
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(Grumble, Grumble) Hey Cochise116, lets get our own spot, or I forgot, don't you already have one?
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i know of some really good land out by buckeye. not private or anything..dont even need to buy it. me and my dad and some ofhi friends go dove huntin there in september each year..i personally think it'd be pretty good for airsoft because it has ditches and hills and trees etc.
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i personally think it'd be pretty good for airsoft because it has ditches and hills and trees etc.
Like the rest of Arizona? ;)
Welcome to the forums, go introduce yourself in the intros area.
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lmao. yeah, you got me there.. :P
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I agree with Andy here that it's not as easy as it sounds. Waivers are all and good, but they are not a foolproof shield against a lawsuit. Someone can still sue you and even win even if they signed a waiver. Hence the reason for insurnace. Such is the nature of a litigous society. :(
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thats why why you form a corporation, then a non profit organization, so if they sue one person they have to sue the corporation, and if the corporation is non profit, it has no money. they get screwed :)
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Actually, you can get screwed because all assets listed under any corporation profit or not are at risk. A common misconception is that Non-profits don't have money. The difference is that a non-profit is limited as to how much it can have. If you really don't want to be sued then setup a Nevada Corporation. These structures are nearly impossible to pursue legally. LLC's are ok for individuals because it prohibits a lawsuit from touching personal items such as your house.
However, most people run into the biggest of issues which is insurance. This is hard to find and more expensive to buy.
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Your both wrong, people can still sue the organizers, personally. There is nothing stopping anybody from suing the owner of the LLC, the legal term is "Piercing the corporate Veil". Law 101. It still amazes me how many people talk out of their ass when it comes to legal issues... everybody is an expert. They hide this sort of information in BOOKS.
Insurance isn't a problem at all, its approx. $411/month which covers up to 100 people per week. Here's the breakdown on the coverage.
You will also need to attach your Air Soft field safety rules with your
application. If you have any questions please call our toll-free number
888-xxx-xxxx or contact me by email at your earliest convenience!
PAINTBALL FIELD-AIRSOFT INSURANCE ESTIMATION
Your estimation based on approximately 5200 total annual players is as
follows:
Total Annual Estimated Premium $4,934.00
Installment Payment Plans are available with this program.
POLICY LIMITS
$2,000,000 General Aggregate
$1,000,000 Bodily Injury & Property Damage Each Occurrence
$1,000,000 Products-Completed/Operations Aggregate
$1,000,000 Personal and Advertising Injury
$ 50,000 Fire Damage and one fire for premises rented to you
$ 25,000 Accident Medical on any one person $250.00 Deductible
Accident medical coverage for your employees is available with this program
for an additional premium.
Business product and retail liability coverage for paintball retail stores
is also available for an additional premium if you currently operate an
insured field!
I am attaching the field insurance application for your consideration. Our
underwriters do require an application to provide a firm quotation and
coverage is subject to underwriting approval. We appreciate your interest in
our program and wish you the very best with your paintball venture. Choose
the buying power of over 500 paintball fields & stores. Choose xxxxx!
I look forward to your response.
One thing to keep in mind is this insurance will only apply to 18yrs and older. The insurance company won't insure those under 18yrs.
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so this would mean people under 18 cant play or just have to play uninsured?
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Well....i think that means no play for minors.
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oh darn well just a thought what about sponserd players :roll:
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so this would mean people under 18 cant play or just have to play uninsured?
Ya...
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so this would mean people under 18 cant play or just have to play uninsured?
Ya...
So Is there a waiver saying that you are held unresponisble or just cant play?
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Did you not read? Just becuase there is a waiver doesn't mean they still can't get sued ect.
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I did , i was just wondering if they take it to a lawer if there was any way they CAN get protected
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You are 13yrs old, legally you can't sign a waiver... only your parents can. There isn't a problem until you lose an eye and then your mom and dad are hell bent on suuing somebody with deep pockets.
BTW, nothing against you personally I was just giving an example, but this appies to everybody. Even adults sue over the smallest things, lawyers line up for this kind of stuff.
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You are 13yrs old, legally you can't sign a waiver... only your parents can. There isn't a problem until you lose an eye and then your mom and dad are hell bent on suuing somebody with deep pockets.
BTW, nothing against you personally I was just giving an example, but this appies to everybody. Even adults sue over the smallest things, lawyers line up for this kind of stuff.
Well my dad is a lawer and if you want i can talk to him about if there is any kind of waiver?
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Why bother, right now there is no field, whomever opens one can do whatever they want, insurance, waivers.... urine testing... whatever!!
I personally wouldn't want to skirmish with a bunch of underage kids, its one of the main reasons I got out of paintball. I know there are exceptions on both sides, adults acting like 'tools' and <18yrs old being very mature.
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one of reasons i quit also people cant trust others and pink guns and 10 yearolds out there thinking there the best and biggest?!?!? i mean come on well if anybody here opens a feild ill ask
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Your both wrong, people can still sue the organizers, personally. There is nothing stopping anybody from suing the owner of the LLC, the legal term is "Piercing the corporate Veil". Law 101. It still amazes me how many people talk out of their ass when it comes to legal issues... everybody is an expert. They hide this sort of information in BOOKS.
Insurance isn't a problem at all, its approx. $411/month which covers up to 100 people per week. Here's the breakdown on the coverage.
You will also need to attach your Air Soft field safety rules with your
application. If you have any questions please call our toll-free number
888-xxx-xxxx or contact me by email at your earliest convenience!
PAINTBALL FIELD-AIRSOFT INSURANCE ESTIMATION
Your estimation based on approximately 5200 total annual players is as
follows:
Total Annual Estimated Premium $4,934.00
Installment Payment Plans are available with this program.
POLICY LIMITS
$2,000,000 General Aggregate
$1,000,000 Bodily Injury & Property Damage Each Occurrence
$1,000,000 Products-Completed/Operations Aggregate
$1,000,000 Personal and Advertising Injury
$ 50,000 Fire Damage and one fire for premises rented to you
$ 25,000 Accident Medical on any one person $250.00 Deductible
Accident medical coverage for your employees is available with this program
for an additional premium.
Business product and retail liability coverage for paintball retail stores
is also available for an additional premium if you currently operate an
insured field!
I am attaching the field insurance application for your consideration. Our
underwriters do require an application to provide a firm quotation and
coverage is subject to underwriting approval. We appreciate your interest in
our program and wish you the very best with your paintball venture. Choose
the buying power of over 500 paintball fields & stores. Choose xxxxx!
I look forward to your response.
One thing to keep in mind is this insurance will only apply to 18yrs and older. The insurance company won't insure those under 18yrs.
The Asset Protection Law Center - guote(law 101)
"The lawsuit protection features of the corporation will be available only if the integrity of the corporation as a separate and distinct entity, apart from the individual, is respected by a court and by the Internal Revenue Service. In matters involving a lawsuit by an injured party, especially if a corporation has no significant assets, the plaintiff will attempt to convince the court that the corporate entity should not be respected and that the principals of the company should be personally liable. In these cases, the plaintiff is attempting to pierce the corporate veil in order to obtain a judgment against the principals, who may have personal assets sufficient to satisfy a judgment.
There are many reported cases on this topic, and the outcome is usually determined by whether the corporation carries out its business and looks and acts the way a corporation should. If the principals treat the corporation and hold out the corporation to third parties as a separate and distinct entity, the court will usually uphold the status of the corporation and will not find personal liability. However, if various corporate formalities are not consistently observed, the corporation will be disregarded and the individuals may be held personally liable.
One of the major problems with the corporate format for small businesses is that as a matter of course the shareholders, officers, and directors will be named in any lawsuit against the corporation. The plaintiff will attempt to pierce the corporation or will argue some theory to make the defendants responsible. In a significant number of these cases, when there is a judgment against the corporation, the court will disregard the legal protection of the corporation and will hold the defendant shareholders, officers, or directors liable.
Much of the practical protection offered by the corporate form is rendered meaningless by these cases. Sometimes the protection is upheld, and sometimes it is not. This lack of certainty makes business planning—and sleeping at night—difficult. Since the shareholder will almost always be named as a defendant in the lawsuit, even if he is ultimately successful, the attorney’s fees and the costs of defense can be financially ruinous.
There are two solutions to this problem. If you are a principal shareholder or officer/director of a corporation, use a proper asset protection plan to shield your personal assets from the potential liability associated with the corporation. Alternatively, use a Limited Liability Company (LLC)—instead of a corporation to conduct business."
This is why I mentioned LLC's and Nevada Corporations. As long as your stuff is in order then is it nearly impossible to pierce.
This is why people like Madonna, and Dennis Rodman use Nevada Corporations. This system fends off 99% of the suits they encounter. I know because I was a VP of a Nevada Corp two years ago and It cost about 4000.00. It offers great protection because you can't open the books unless the US Supreme Court orders it, and the CEO/ Lawyer that set everything up quits the day after the paperwork is signed and has no knowledge of any members of the corp. Therefore as the former CEO he can no longer be held responsible for the actions of the Corp. This system was started to fight back against frivolous lawsuits.
Ofcourse there is NO perfect system but it is not that easy to pierce as many would think IF you CYA.
As for the Insurance, granted it has been over a year ago but at the time insurance agents said it wouldn't be a problem to do until I was told to ask about safety gear. When I did I found that there is no rating for airsoft goggles. JT was the closest to marketing a pair but could not due to legal issues. Therefore ASTM was going to be approached by the Airsoft Federation and develop specs for it. I do not know the outcome of those meetings.
Since I haven't heard of ASTM airsoft ratings I can only assume that it is not approved yet. (Does anyone know?) Which could cause a very large situation if someone lost an eye because unrated airsoft goggles were used. BTW what would the requirements be for a field facemask or goggles?
I did start talking with the NRA on an idea to promote a IDPA style system with airsoft which their insurance would cover, and they will be at the Airsoft Expo and I'm sure that John Lu will talk with futher about that.
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Doesn't Airsoft CQB require EVERY PLAYER where a face mask that plays there?
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Doesn't Airsoft CQB require EVERY PLAYER where a face mask that plays there?
It sure does (there might be exceptions for team training and LE)
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What do they require for a mask? A full paintball mask? or will normal, sealed eyewear with a balaclava work?