Israeli Aggression in Lebanon...

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

The problem is that for nearly 50 years we have given Israel its entire military might, basically, it is a mini United States in terms of military power. I am all for letting them fight each other to the death, but it would hardly be a fair fight with all of the international help that we and others give the Israelis. I am not saying that pulling out of Israel would be a cure all to the problem, but it would certainly help our image in the Middle Eastern world that doesn't hate us, like Jordan, Egypt, etc. What it boils down to is that I am in disagreement with the creation of Israel on principle. Let me just say this, I am not anti-Semitic, I just do not approve of how Israel conducts its international affairs and business. This is not to say that the radical Muslims conduct theirs any better, I just see more justification on their side. Lastly, I challenge you to find a radical, fundamentalist, Muslim terror group that existed before 1948, when Israel was first recognized in the world community.

[Vince]

Israel is fuckin' cool.

To not support them would be a mistake both in doctrine and in philosophy for this country. Besides that, it won't happen anyway.

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

I just don't understand why it would be a "mistake in doctrine and philosophy." I mean, Israel has only been truly a country for 50 years. Why are we always on their side? (I suppose I shouldn't say always, but most of the time)

[Vince]

I have my own theories on this subject, but, they border on possibly questionable (even if true, perhaps), and it'll be something good to talk about in person with you, but the fact of the matter is : they're our allies and we do not forsake our allies. We're not a bunch of fuckin' faggoty frog Judases.

[Farslayer]

Hmmm....Judas.....hmmm.....

[The Cartographer]

We take Isreal's side because they aren't trying to kill us.  Besides, has Isreal ever lauched a Jihad on anyone?  It's not that the Arabs have a problem with the US, rather, they have a problem with everyone.  Remember the London train bombings, or the bombs in Spain?  Or all those embassies that got bombed, or taken over over the last 30 years? Everyone is a viable target for these people.

As for the creation of Isreal, they have as much claim to the place as the Palestinians.  Throughout history, the place has been one big fight for Jerusalam(sp).  Finding out who really "owns" the place is next to impossible.  I think that the whole "take back the holy land" thing has just become an excuse to wage a jihad against the west.  It may have been a real movement at one point, but it seems to have lost steam in comparison to their quest to destroy western civilization.

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

If you will read the thread, Cartographer, Israel is not trying to kill us because we, a) had a big hand in creating her following the mass exodus of the refugees from Europe, and b) we have supported them financially, militarily, and politically from day one. I suppose it is a guilt thing because we refused to accept all of those refugees before the war started.

As for the claim to the land. Yes, the Israelis have as much claim to the holy land as the Muslims, however, what you are still missing is that prior to 1948 Palestine was a colony of Britain with a mixed population of both Muslims and Jews who lived in moderately peaceful coexistence. However, following WWII, the Zionist movement that came from the European Jewish Holocaust survivors/refugees went to the UN and plead their case for a Jewish homeland. During this time, the US and Britain supported the case for a Jewish homeland to be created in Palestine/Trans-Jordan, and I believe, would contain Jerusalem. Now, the problem that the Muslims have with this is that the UN voted to carve two nations out of Palestine and Trans-Jordan, instead of having one state. In addition, the state of Israel was given nearly all of the coast line and ports, and I am pretty sure Jerusalem as well. The Muslims were given the barren desert wasteland to the east, where farming was nearly impossible. The kicker in all of this mess was that the entire world community at the time supported this Israeli state, even if it meant displacing thousands of Muslims. What is interesting is that through all of this, Jordan, a Muslim country, became our ally. My only question is this, why did we not support the Arab nations as equally as we supported the Israeli's. I personally believe, as I stated earlier, is that the government was guilt-ridden about turning away those thousands of refugees before the Holocaust even started. This is where I believe that the hatred of the US in those countries started and I would also state that for a person who is trying to recruit people to his cause, there is no better calling than religion. I personally believe that Jihad, at least in the 20th century, is merely an easier calling than explaining to every new terrorist why it is they are pissed off at the Western world, specifically the US and Britain.

[sNiPeRWoLf88]

It's not that the Arabs have a problem with the US, rather, they have a problem with everyone.

See, it's ignorance like this that makes us (Americans) look like a bunch of idiots to the rest of the world.  

Get it straight... it's not "arabs" that cause all of this trouble.  It's "religious extremists" who cause all of this crap.  Other such "extremists" include Nazi's, KKK members, the Crusaders (yes, think back to the textbooks), and even so called "american patriots" who diefy the flag and patrol imaginary lines with 5,000 rounds of ammunition.

Don't be ignorant.  Statements like this make us all look like morons.

[Vince]

5,000 rounds of ammunition.

Don't be ignorant.  Statements like this make us all look like morons.

[Farslayer]

It's not that the Arabs have a problem with the US, rather, they have a problem with everyone.

See, it's ignorance like this that makes us (Americans) look like a bunch of idiots to the rest of the world.  

Get it straight... it's not "arabs" that cause all of this trouble.  It's "religious extremists" who cause all of this crap.  Other such "extremists" include Nazi's, KKK members, the Crusaders (yes, think back to the textbooks), and even so called "american patriots" who diefy the flag and patrol imaginary lines with 5,000 rounds of ammunition.

Don't be ignorant.  Statements like this make us all look like morons.

Oh come on!  I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but it is a COMMON fact that most of the mainstream muslim nations (and therefore many muslims, not all, just many) hate americans and jews.  even our allies, ie. saudi arbia, have anti american and antisematic teachings in their grade school books!! from a young age they are taught to hate us.  they want to erradicate all non muslim nations and governments.  we do have some allies in the middle east, but many more enemies.

[sNiPeRWoLf88]

5,000 rounds of ammunition.

Don't be ignorant.  Statements like this make us all look like morons.

Unfortunetly, I've watched minute men say "I carry 5,000 rounds of ammunition when I go to the border" on television on multiple accounts, so my exaggeration isn't so farfetched.  

Oh come on!  I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but it is a COMMON fact that most of the mainstream muslim nations (and therefore many muslims, not all, just many) hate americans and jews.  

My point exactly.

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

It's not that the Arabs have a problem with the US, rather, they have a problem with everyone.

See, it's ignorance like this that makes us (Americans) look like a bunch of idiots to the rest of the world.  

Get it straight... it's not "arabs" that cause all of this trouble.  It's "religious extremists" who cause all of this crap.  Other such "extremists" include Nazi's, KKK members, the Crusaders (yes, think back to the textbooks), and even so called "american patriots" who diefy the flag and patrol imaginary lines with 5,000 rounds of ammunition.

Don't be ignorant.  Statements like this make us all look like morons.

Oh come on!  I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but it is a COMMON fact that most of the mainstream muslim nations (and therefore many muslims, not all, just many) hate americans and jews.  even our allies, ie. saudi arbia, have anti american and antisematic teachings in their grade school books!! from a young age they are taught to hate us.  they want to erradicate all non muslim nations and governments.  we do have some allies in the middle east, but many more enemies.

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but do you have any source with which to back that up? I have never heard of any of those teachings in any of the school books in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc. for that matter any of our allies in the ME. It is more probable that these books would occur in Iraq and Iran. I am pretty sure that the extremists are made from radical religious teachings. Hell, even in the US our history teachers lie to us everyday. The Civil War was not fought to end slavery, the Emancipation Proclamation did not free the slaves, the stock market crash was not the cause of the Great Depression, etc. I think that the first two years of high school history are purely meant to undo all of the bullshit that primary school teaches our youth. Anyway, I am not any kind of religious scholar or anything, but doesn't the Bible somewhere say that all non-Christians are damned to hell? (Not rhetorical, just asking) I ask because this is what the clerics tell the uneducated Muslims about what the Koran says, hence making radical Muslims. Beyond that, aren't we now being taught to hate Muslims and be wary of all of them? Doesn't that seem like it is redundant? When you really boil this whole thing down, it is just another crusade, leading me to find the real evil, radical religion of any kind be it Christianty, Judaism, or Islam.

[Farslayer]

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but do you have any source with which to back that up? I have never heard of any of those teachings in any of the school books in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc. for that matter any of our allies in the ME.

Here's a few:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01769.html

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page= ... ID=SR01202

www.freedomhouse.org/religion/pdfdocs/FINAL%20FINAL.pdf

(look on  page 29 under "jews" and page 39 under "america".  really long, but educational)


Among the key findings of the report:

* Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations;

* The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;

* The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned. For example, a document in the collection for the “Immigrant Muslimâ€￾ bears the words “Greetings from the Cultural Attache in Washington, D.C.â€￾ of the Embassy of Saudi Arabia, and is published by the government of Saudi Arabia. In an authoritative religious voice, it gives detailed instructions on how to “hateâ€￾ the Christian and Jew: Never greet them first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never imitate the infidel. Do not become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel;

* One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. In these documents, other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance, are condemned as infidels. The opening fatwa in one Saudi embassy-distributed book, published by the Saudi Air Force, responds to a question about a Muslim preacher in a European mosque who taught that it is not right to condemn Jews and Christians as infidels. The Saudi state cleric’s reply rebukes the Muslim cleric: “He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his.â€￾ Since, under Saudi law, “apostatesâ€￾ from Islam can be sentenced to death, this is an implied death threat against the tolerant Muslim imam, as well as an incitement to vigilante violence;

* Sufi and Shiite Muslims are viciously condemned;

* For a Muslim who fails to uphold the Saudi Wahhabi sect’s sexual mores (i.e. through homosexual activity or heterosexual activity outside of marriage), the edicts published by the Saudi government’s Ministry of Islamic Affairs, and found in American mosques advise, “it would be lawful for Muslims to spill his blood and to take his money;â€￾

* Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they “should be killed;â€￾

* Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel;

* Regarding women, the Saudi publications instruct that they should be veiled, segregated from men and barred from certain employment and roles;

The report states: “While the government of Saudi Arabia claims to be ‘updating’ or reforming its textbooks and study materials within the Kingdom, its publications propagating an ideology of hatred remain plentiful in some prominent American mosques and Islamic centers, and continue to be a principal resource available to students of Islam within the United States.â€￾


There is a lot more out there.  Basically, these textbooks aren't written by extemist, they are written by Saudi education ministry.  They are being distributed to mosques in America.  Google Wahhabism and read for awhile.

EDIT: Another by mainling media:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... abism.html

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

Wow, I did not realize that. Definitely a Middle Ages type of thinking. However, it is interesting to note that this same type of craziness was preached to Christians back in those times. Clearly they are in need of reform, much like the Christians in the dark ages. I guess this whole thing just boils down to religion, which is something that no one in the world will ever give up.

[Farslayer]

I've never been very good of a debater, but if this is true, it isn't hard to prove.

Bin Ladin got his radical views from growing up in this stuff.



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... books.html