Author Topic: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?  (Read 12746 times)

Offline Polie

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2008, 01:03:54 PM »
Quote from: "Giland"
9mm is not a good tactical round?
Then why is the most popular submachine gun in the world the MP5, a 9mm weapon?

I am currently reading "The Finishing School" by Dick Couch.
This book is about what happens AFTER BUD/S. For this part, he is following class 2-02
He says, and I quote,
"The MK23 is a special 45 caliber pistol made to SOF specifications by Heckler & Koch. Both of these weapons(I skipped including the 357 revolver-GB)have their advantages, but are of limited use for SEALs.The secondary weapon in the teams, by issue if not by choice, is the Sig Sauer P226, a 9mm pistol".

Some people prefer the 45 and yes, it does have more stopping power than a 9mm, but the difference is something like 2%. In other words, in 2% of engagements, the 45, with one round, stops what the 9mm didn't with only one round. However, the 9mm can give 16 rounds vs the 7 rounds of a 45. 2% more stopping power, or 9 more rounds. Personally, I chose the extra 9 rounds.

dont have much time since im at work, but my .45 is 13+1 not 7.  And the .45 is more than a 2% increase.  When I get home I will get my loading manuals out and crunch the numbers for you.

Also, mp5 in 9mm.  The reason for that is 1)capacity, 2)Recoil, 3) its a selective fire.  Your pistol is a semi-auto,  3 9mm rds to the chest is better than 1 .45 or 1 9mm.  We are not comparing smg's here so lets get back on topic with pistols.
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Offline Giland

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2008, 03:23:05 PM »
I mentioned the MP5 as a direct rebuttal to the post that 9mm is not a good tactical round. An MP5 is a close-in weapon. If the 9mm wasn't a good round for stopping someone, then why is a weapon that uses it the most popular weapon in the world for close in fights? It is a sound round. If the 45 was so vastly superior, why isn't the most popular SMG in the world shooting it? You can't tell me they expect the user to fire 3 rounds of 9mm vs just one from a 45.

Of course, if you want the BEST round, then according to the FBI, that is the 10mm using a 180gr JHP

According to the FBI, the 9mm does not meet their requirements due to penetration. It does not penetrate 12 inches into ballistic gel often enough (67.5%) when doing testing. An example of a test firing  is a 10 foot shot through an auto glass windshield angled at 45 degrees, then into ballistic gel covered by t-shirt material and flannel material. Pass/fail was 12 inches (wow). The average penetration was 13.84 inches across all tests for the 9mm.(45 was 92.5% with average of 19.95 inches while the 10mm was 97.5%, 17.9 inches average).

I love this quote from the FBI article in regards to the 9mm
Quote
It is woefully inadequate for shooting people in cars and over half of our shootings involve vehicles
and another
Quote
We have shot half a dozen dogs in the past year and not killed one yet, although we have run up a significant veterinary bill. The 9mm with proper ammunition is not a bad round

*all numbers and quotes taken from FBI 10mm notes from SSA Urey W Patrick, Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico VA

(in regards to the 2%, I read an article about a year ago that said in defensive shootings, that 45s had something like a 90% success rate of stopping the perp, while the 9 mm was at 87% or 88%. The percentage difference between the two rounds was very low)
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Offline VanillaGuerrilla

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2008, 04:26:01 PM »
The way I see it, you're both right in your own ways. Caliber (and the consequential terminal ballistics involved) is really more of a personal preference. Who cares if it's 9mm or .45, and how many layers of glass or gel it penetrates? Accuracy and reliability are far more important than capacity, penetration and knock-down power any day of the week. Go with what's comfortable and familiar. No matter what an agressor get's shot in the face with, it'll hurt.
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Offline Maestro

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2008, 04:36:24 PM »
Quote from: "VanillaGuerrilla"
No matter what an agressor get's shot in the face with, it'll hurt.

that made me giggle.

I have a .38, 9mm, and a .45 that I carry with regularity, and I'm more of a round over caliber.  Loaded with the right rounds for the right situation, you're deadly with anything.
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Offline KOBO

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2008, 04:47:52 PM »
Now I am completely uneducated on the different capabilities of particular round, but wouldn't even a  22 make someone consider if its worth getting shot, hurt, or even stop someone? I'm just thinking here...

Now I am sure different rounds excel in certain situations, but to me the size of the bullet is more of an emotional attachment, if I was going defend myself with a 22 I am sure I can, granted its not going go through a tank, or even body armor, but how many punks do you see with that?

As for carrying, I agree with Vanilla, you comfort with the weapon is going be more of a value.
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Offline deathbydanish

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2008, 05:02:47 PM »
Quote from: "Maestro"
Quote from: "VanillaGuerrilla"
No matter what an agressor get's shot in the face with, it'll hurt.

that made me giggle.

I have a .38, 9mm, and a .45 that I carry with regularity, and I'm more of a round over caliber.  Loaded with the right rounds for the right situation, you're deadly with anything.

Even a .177 fired from a Daisy pump action airgun?  :P

I heard Reagan got hit with a bunch of .22s but didn't notice it till later.
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Offline Maestro

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2008, 05:16:34 PM »
deterrant yes, but if the gun actually has to be used, you have to be conscious of what round you are carrying.  A young woman decided that the best way to make money was to stop selling her body at a truck stop, and instead rob the truckers.  She pushed a trucker up against his truck and cut his throat, but not before he fired off the entire mag of his 22 pistol.  She didn't even realize she had been hit, and went back into the truck stop to look for another victim, where the police found her sipping a cup of coffee.  This in no way knocks the caliber itself, but if he had spent a little more money on the rounds for carrying, then he would have put her down.

P.S.  I've never carried a 22, so I have no idea what would be an adequate round for that gun, but I imagine shoving the gun in their gut or chest to either side of the sternum and firing a glaser would do the trick.  I obviously don't know this for certain, so don't run out and buy glasers.
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Offline Maestro

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2008, 05:32:51 PM »
And I've just been told that these rounds can bring the righteous thunder.

.22LR Aguila Super Max Hyper Velocity Hollow Point
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Offline driver5

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2008, 08:21:09 PM »
Friends don't let friends carry .22.  Of all the common pistol rounds, it is the only one that will *not* consistently stop a threat (if you shoot the right part of the bad guy). The round is too light, but more importantly there isn't near enough powder behind it.

I carry a 9mm, on the theory that I don't have perfect aim, so maybe those 15th-17th rounds will make a difference. I am also significantly better at coming back on target with it than with .45. I can put 3 rounds of 9mm in the upper chest quicker than I can put 2 of .45.

edit: .22 and .22LR aren't the same round
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Offline Polie

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2008, 11:14:16 PM »
Quote from: "Giland"
I mentioned the MP5 as a direct rebuttal to the post that 9mm is not a good tactical round. An MP5 is a close-in weapon. If the 9mm wasn't a good round for stopping someone, then why is a weapon that uses it the most popular weapon in the world for close in fights? It is a sound round. If the 45 was so vastly superior, why isn't the most popular SMG in the world shooting it? You can't tell me they expect the user to fire 3 rounds of 9mm vs just one from a 45.

Of course, if you want the BEST round, then according to the FBI, that is the 10mm using a 180gr JHP

According to the FBI, the 9mm does not meet their requirements due to penetration. It does not penetrate 12 inches into ballistic gel often enough (67.5%) when doing testing. An example of a test firing  is a 10 foot shot through an auto glass windshield angled at 45 degrees, then into ballistic gel covered by t-shirt material and flannel material. Pass/fail was 12 inches (wow). The average penetration was 13.84 inches across all tests for the 9mm.(45 was 92.5% with average of 19.95 inches while the 10mm was 97.5%, 17.9 inches average).

I love this quote from the FBI article in regards to the 9mm
Quote
It is woefully inadequate for shooting people in cars and over half of our shootings involve vehicles
and another
Quote
We have shot half a dozen dogs in the past year and not killed one yet, although we have run up a significant veterinary bill. The 9mm with proper ammunition is not a bad round

*all numbers and quotes taken from FBI 10mm notes from SSA Urey W Patrick, Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico VA

(in regards to the 2%, I read an article about a year ago that said in defensive shootings, that 45s had something like a 90% success rate of stopping the perp, while the 9 mm was at 87% or 88%. The percentage difference between the two rounds was very low)

ok dumbass, I was referring to you mentioning the mp5.  think about it. 1 quick squeeze in full auto equals about 3rds. 1 squeeze of your pistol equals 1rd. duh.

man, are you really that thick?

Now for an honest question of yours about why the 9mm is popular.  Ok ready for it? Hear it comes:




Because it is MUCH cheaper to produce the pistol and the ammunition!  The same answer goes for smg's.  The .45 uses almost twice the metal in production of the ammunition.


Heres a quote from a good website.  


Quote
I’ve never had to shoot a live assailant (and hope I never have to), but I know guys who have and gunlore is filled with their sordid stories. My buddy (we’ll call him The Captain) returned last year from his 2nd tour of duty in Iraq where he ran a Scout Platoon for the 4th Infantry Division near Najaf. Over drinks one night back home he told me that it took multiple rounds from his trusty M9 Beretta 9mm to take down an attacking assailant while the Spec Ops guy next to him, unfettered with an Army issued sidearm, blew the vitals clear out through an insurgent’s backside with one shot from his .45.

Now I’ve seen The Captain light matches at distance with a rifle bullet, but even he admits to being less than a crack shot with the pistol. I can imagine that accuracy played some part in the outcome with several of The Captain’s 9mm rounds going astray in the frenzied heat of the battle while a seasoned dead-eye Green Beret may have nailed his target front-and-center on the first try. But aside from anecdotal stories and myths, what do the facts of science suggest about cartridge effectiveness?......

The Geneva Convention requires that only ball ammunition be used during warfare which means a small and smooth copper-jacketed 9mm round traveling at a blistering 1,200 fps will likely pass completely through a target depositing a big portion of its energy into whatever happens to be behind it. The bigger .45 traveling at sub-sonic speeds may be more likely to stop inside the target where it expends more of its destructive energy.


Now with ALL of that being said; if you fail to get proper training and cannot handle the .45 and can only shoot the 9mm accurately, then go for it.  Fact of the matter is if you can put 3 shots center mass in under 2 seconds at 21 feet then your 'should' be fine.  Now all the practice in the world will not prepare you for the real life situation you hopefully never have to face, but I would prefer only having to hit the sob once in the chest vs. multiple times.  




Oh at to your kids talking about the .22lr, its only good for killin birds, coons, and that shit head dog that keeps on crappin in my yard.



Now to shotguns.  As demonstrated my "The Truth Box" only 00 buck and better is good for taking down a man.  There have been a few instances where people where shot with bird shot and it did not even pass the ribcage.  I remember one article about a guy who was shot with a 12ga full of #9 shot and when the cops got there he was walking around.  Only 1 pellet had pass the rib cage and it was only about 1/4 of an inch.
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Offline Doc Hollywood

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2008, 08:47:15 AM »
so ... WTF are you anyway ?  LEO ? SSS Operator ?

Have you experienced the "emotional/mental power and preparation" it takes to pull the trigger?

Your post fails to take into consideration no one knows you, you dont know us, and there are more than a few on here who have been in that "dynamic situation."

What do you carry (presuming you have a CCW) ?

Why isn't is OK for someone to decide to carry THEIR handgun without a round chambered ?  Because you said so ?

If you are going to spew your shit to people who clearly know more than you do, back it up or go home.  

Quote from: "cburnett"
All I have to say about this topic is that if you are uncomfortable carrying a loaded gun with one in the chamber with the hammer cocked, with proper safeties in place, you should not be carrying a gun, especially concealed.  I don't think that many people think and consider the emotional/mental power and preparation it takes to use a gun in a dynamic situation.  Before buying a gun "just to carry it" to feel that rush to your ego, consider and ponder on the fact if you truly can take another's life when by sheer accident/coincidence you are in a moment in time when that kind of force is needed.

Guns are great, and a lot of fun, but I fear that too many people buy them and carry them just to feel "cool."  Consider if your truly ready to make that decision in your life that will affect you forever and all those you love, and then I think one is ready to buy, train and prepare for that once in a life time moment that no man longs for.

And if you do decide that this responsibility part of yours to carry, buy a Glock and make it a .357 Sig or above.  Not a pansy 9mm.
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Offline Maestro

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2008, 12:29:21 PM »
Doc might very well be my favorite person in the world right now.
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Offline Giland

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2008, 01:35:38 PM »
Quote from: "Polie"

ok dumbass, I was referring to you mentioning the mp5.  think about it. 1 quick squeeze in full auto equals about 3rds. 1 squeeze of your pistol equals 1rd. duh.

man, are you really that thick?

anger management issues? Try calming down and having a reasonable discussion as an adult and not be so insulting.

a quote from you from the original post I was replying to.
Quote from: "Polie"

Now to the .357 myth9mm myth. Look at your loading data, they are basically the same; that is, they both are NOT good tactical cartridges.

Again, if the 9mm is not a good tactical round, then why is it the ONLY round offered in the MP5, the most POPULAR SMG IN THE WORLD? (An MP5 that shoots anything besides a 9mm was a special order, the 5 in MP5 designates the 9mm cartridge.) The 9mm is a pistol round, therefore it is ONLY for close-in combat. If it is not a good round, then why is a gun chambered in it the most popular? Because you can shoot it 3 times? Is that the answer you are going with?

Quote from: "Polie"

Now for an honest question of yours about why the 9mm is popular.  Ok ready for it? Hear it comes:
Because it is MUCH cheaper to produce the pistol and the ammunition!  The same answer goes for smg's.  The .45 uses almost twice the metal in production of the ammunition.
Of course, if your weapon requires 3 rounds to reduce the assailant to a nonthreatening state, then it really isn't cheaper.
I highly doubt 45 is 3 times the price of 9mm

Quote from: "Polie"

Heres a quote from a good website.  

Quote
I’ve never had to shoot a live assailant...

wow, a quote from an anonymous website giving second hand information about a shooting. If it is on the interweb, it must be true! I don't know the experience of the person writing the story, nor the experience of the person involved in the shooting of whom he is talking about. Using this as a creditable source is laughable.

My source for saying the 9mm cartridge is a good round is quoting Dick Couch, former Naval Officer, SEAL Team 1 Platoon commander in Vietnam, who is quoting a SQT Handgun instructor of the rank Petty Officer (name withheld from book due to security reasons), a 14 year Navy veteran with 4 Platoon deployments with both SEAL Team 3 and SEAL Team 5. A SIG 226 shooting a 9mm round is the Petty Officers choice of a secondary weapon.
To me, looking at their credentials, seems that both of these guys have been there, done that.
If a 9mm handgun is good enough for the petty officer, then it sure as heck is good enough for me.
 

Quote from: "Polie"

Now all the practice in the world will not prepare you for the real life situation you hopefully never have to face, but I would prefer only having to hit the sob once in the chest vs. multiple times.  

I agree, you can't count on hitting someone 3 times in the chest. Heck, the FBI states they only hit the subject 20-30% of the time.


You know, my position in this whole exchange is basically saying that 9mm is an adequate round for a concealed weapon. Does the 45 do it better? Yes it does. And according to the FBI who did extensive testing, the 10mm does it better still.
So really, 9mm < 45 caliber < 10mm
However, all are good carry rounds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Maestro

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2008, 02:14:30 PM »
well said, but he's probably going to jump all over you for the mp5 comments again  :lol:
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Offline Polie

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Re: Walther P99 .40SW and concealed carry?
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2008, 12:39:18 AM »
ok im an ass and forgot to post the link. but im tired of this crap its not going anywhere.  fact of the matter is that the 9mm is no where nearly as good as the .45 and for packing purposes the .45 is the better choice.  You will not be going through 16rds of 9mm. Hell you wont be going through the 14rds of .45.   I can understand people who have small hands having difficulty with a large double stack .45 vs the 9mm, but there are other options.  I am not going to continue arguing with complete noobs over the subject when in the long run it dosn't even matter.  Some people are in love with the 9mm, and thats ok.  Its sub-par when compared to the .45, but this is the US you can have what ever the hell you want.
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