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Offline Paco

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« on: September 24, 2003, 11:27:40 AM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by stoneaglewolf</i>
<br />
3. Personally, I don't have a problem with minors having airsoft guns. Because as long

as they have irresponsible parents, minors will still be just as dangerous. Requiring

parents to buy them for their kids will do very little to protect us. If you want a law

that works then let's push for laws that state the following:

A. It is illegal to point, fire, or threaten harm with an airsoft gun inside any city

limits without written approval from local law-enforcement.

B. Any airsoft gun used in the commission of a crime will be treated as a real firearm.

Law-enforcement officers will respond to an airsoft gun as a real firearm.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Good points, and I agree, except for your fisrt #3 point (you have #3 down twice).  

Just because we as a group (or an individual) think it's okay and does no harm for

minors to be involved in airsoft, doesn't mean that it's right.  If airsoft is not

LEGAL to buy unless you're at least 18 years old (adult), then no matter how many of us

think it's "okay" for a minor to be involved in the adult sport of airsoft, it doesn't

make it right.  How can minors play airsoft without buying airsoft guns?  It's kind of

a catch-22.  My PERSONAL belief is that a minor SHOULD be allowed to play/participate

in airsoft games/events ONLY when his or her parent is right there alongside them

PLAYING.  I do NOT think it's okay for a minor to buy an AEG, or for a parent/adult to buy an AEG FOR the minor's personal unsupervised use.  A convenient view since it also happens to be the law. [:)]

BTW, your points A (is it me, or is "A" worded a little strangely?) and B are already

laws AFAIK.  

Point A:  Isn't it already illegal to threaten or harm someone with anything (whether

it be a BB gun, a bat or an airsoft pistol, unless it's in self-defense) regardless of

it being in city limits or outside city limits?  Not sure why "written approval from

local Law-enforcement" would be granted to "point, fire, or threaten harm with an

airsoft gun inside any city limits".       ???

Point B:  A replica/toy firearm used in the commission of a crime is actually treated

as if it were a real firearm in the prosecution of that crime.

This is some good discussion.  Keep it going, and keep it civil.  [:)]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Paco »

Offline Harley

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« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2003, 11:38:40 AM »
Kids and Airsoft need to be treated the same as kids and real steel.  I know many young people that participate in real firearms competition.  The requirements for doing so are that they be supervised by their parents while doing so.  You don't just drop little Johnny or Janie at the shooting range for the day and pick them up a few hours later.  You stay there with them right by their side during the whole event.  Plan and simple.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline Pancho

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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2003, 11:53:13 AM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Paco</i>
<br />How can minors play airsoft without buying airsoft guns?  It's kind of a catch-22.  My PERSONAL belief is that a minor SHOULD be allowed to play/participate in airsoft games/events ONLY when his or her parent is right there alongside them PLAYING.  I do NOT think it's okay for a minor to buy an AEG, or for a parent/adult to buy an AEG FOR the minor's personal unsupervised use.  A convenient view since it also happens to be the law. [:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
As I said in my post, minors should get together amongst themselves w/ springers, unless they have a parent playing in an AA game, then I see no problem w/ them having an AEG.

Not to fuel the fire, but how would non-AA games need to be conducted? Many of us get together to have informal skirmishes. And many minors show up for these too. WITH their ill-gotten guns. My opinion is that if I am a member of AA, then I conduct myself in accordance with the rules whether I am participating in a sanctioned AA event or not. That would mean, same rules apply to non-AA games. *My opinion only, here.*

Looks like we are all in agreement on the major points, here. So when and how do we implement these?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Pancho »
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Offline Raith

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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2003, 12:12:13 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Paco</i>
<br />Just because we as a group (or an individual) think it's okay and does no harm for minors to be involved in airsoft, doesn't mean that it's right.  If airsoft is not LEGAL to buy unless you're at least 18 years old (adult), then no matter how many of us think it's "okay" for a minor to be involved in the adult sport of airsoft, it doesn't make it right.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I don't think I agree with all of this.  I think the very fact that we think (or don't think) it's okay for minors to be involved with airsoft is what makes it right (or wrong), not the law governing it.

Our thoughts of the laws is what makes them "right" or "wrong", not the law that makes our thoughts about them "right" or "wrong"

Airsoft may be in the spotlight, and I understand the importance of putting the proper face on things, but I believe its very important to understand the difference here.

What makes something illegal or not and what is right/wrong are <i>often</i> not the same...

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stoneaglewolf</i>
<br />3. Personally, I don't have a problem with minors having airsoft guns. Because as long as they have irresponsible parents, minors will still be just as dangerous. Requiring parents to buy them for their kids will do very little to protect us. If you want a law that works then let's push for laws that state the following:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Again, I think *any* additional legislation is detrimental.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A. It is illegal to point, fire, or threaten harm with an airsoft gun inside any city limits without written approval from local law-enforcement.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Like Jason said, this is already against the law, and I don't really think its quite clear enough.  The way in which we play airsoft is based on consent (Another possible minor issue?) in that we, as players, consent to be shot by other's airsoft guns.  This is what separates what we do from what stupid people who shoot their paintball guns at people on the street as they drive by and film it.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">B. Any airsoft gun used in the commission of a crime will be treated as a real firearm. Law-enforcement officers will respond to an airsoft gun as a real firearm.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Again, I believe this already is the status quo.  I certainly support it.  Anybody that is shot because they pointed an airsoft gun at someone without their consent definately got what was coming to them, and their death, while unfortunate, was no one's fault but theirs.  The "death toll" for fake gun shootings is easily a price that we should be willing to pay for the protection of others in harm's way.  You cannot have hesitation among people based on if they have to determine if its an airsoft gun or not when the time comes to respond with lethal force.  You shoot first and ask questions later, or actual innocent people die.

Again, responsibility of your own actions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Raith »
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Offline Paco

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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2003, 12:35:02 PM »
Matt, I think you just misunderstood me (or I wasn't clear enough):  
We have the right to think whatever we want to about the laws (of course), but it doesn't change the fact that it's a law.  That's what I was saying.  For example:  I don't think that the 1994 AWB is correct, but if I put an adjustable stock on one of my AR-15's, I am wrong because I am breaking the law and doing something illegal.  I am using the word "wrong" in the sense of breaking the law (ie - illegal).

Hope that clears up what I was meaning.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Paco »

Offline Pancho

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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2003, 12:44:57 PM »
"Right" and "wrong" are not necessarily synonymous with "legal" and "illegal" [;)] But I understand what you mean, Paco.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Pancho »
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Offline Raith

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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2003, 12:46:31 PM »
And I wasn't quite as clear as I could be.  Frank hit it on the head, though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Raith »
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Offline Paco

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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2003, 12:49:41 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pancho</i>
<br />"Right" and "wrong" are not necessarily synonymous with "legal" and "illegal" [;)] But I understand what you mean, Paco.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Of course they aren't!  (which is why I clarified what I wrote after Matt questioned it)  I was using them as absolutes which I should have clarified originally.  My bad.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Paco »

Offline yellowmonkey

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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2003, 04:14:07 PM »
Yeesh, I leave my post alone for 1 day and I have started a firestorm. Well I think almost all of my counter points for all of your arguments have been expressed in one way or another, and I don't want to make any more philisophical uproars. Basically what I would like you people to consider (if you haven't already) is putting yourselves into the shoes of a minor (or vice versa). Here is a difficult choice: Do I obey the letter of the law, or do I disobey, knowing full-well that what I am doing is for all locical purposes "right" (as defined as being seperate from the law)? I think StoneWolf, although I disagree with some of his other ideas, did make it clear that when the time comes, we need to push for laws that define airsoft in a way that suits us as players. Although I don't know if this too is what StoneWolf meant when talking about making new laws, I think the laws need to be effectively replaced with more definite laws. I do not want more laws (call me a Margarete Thatcher of sorts as far as legislative ideology), I think we need less laws that are more definitive. Remember that we are the airsoft players, in a sense, we are airsoft. Without us, the manufacturers would perish and there would be airsoft no more. We do need to contact our local representatives and inform them. Someone had said that letting airsoft get out into the open will just "burn" us. I think that is valid, but I think that we just have a better chance now, than later.

I think that AirsoftArizona is a great springboard for encouraging new/ changing legislation regarding airsoft and you have to let your reps know about it. I'm not 18, so I have limited power (ie. signing a petition), but if AA does decide to make a move and get in contact with someone who can get legislative action, I will contribute my limited resources to the effort, and I think that a lot of the others would too. I know it's hard to function as a very small minority, but I think the United States is now structured to take us into consideration, we just have to make the right points. I am very interested in the paintball legislation and how it all came around, I think there are valuable lessons to be learned there. Perhaps AirsoftArizona would be at some time interested in drafting a letter of ideology to submit to a representative. AA would literally be the spearhead of the emerging Airsoft issue. I also think that the ideas expressed here as far as minors playing airsoft could be addressed in this letter. Right now I am a minor, so it is up to you older people to make the right decisions for us minors now. Hopefully my ideas have persuaded you to sympathize with my condition, this is what these forums are for.

The time is now. I'm pushing for action now. Perhaps a national airsoft confrance is in order. It feels like the days of revolution, but look at the power that you have to change things for the better. It is important that the entire airsoft community be involved in this. I hope that you share with you friends who don't see this forum your new ideas for airsoft.

I really appreciate all the combative opinions that were raised here. Isn't it nice to live in a place where this kind of discussion is open and free?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by yellowmonkey »
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Offline Harley

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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2003, 04:56:17 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by yellowmonkey</i>
<br /> Basically what I would like you people to consider (if you haven't already) is putting yourselves into the shoes of a minor (or vice versa). <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

What you and other's in your position don't take into consideration is that <b>WE HAVE BEEN IN YOUR SHOES</b> at one time or another.  We all wanted to do what the big boys were doing.  We also had to wait our turns just like you guys are now doing.  You need to learn patience and to practice it or you're going to end up with lots of disappointments throughout your life.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline Pancho

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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2003, 05:22:28 PM »
Ditto
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Pancho »
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Offline Screwloose

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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2003, 05:33:54 PM »
I think I will offend most people here, but hey life's to short to beat around the bush.

I, as you all, was under age at some point, so there is no put yourself in "my shoes" valid argument here. We were all there and have had a few years to think these things over since then.

In my opinion, being underage in this country is a joke. Our standards are out of wack. We allow children to drive large fast moving vehicles with little to no supervision and better yet with no responsibility. Yet when it comes to weapons as defined by our society 18 is the minimum legal age, and with massive repercussions if something nefarious happens. Still, would I live in any other country? NO!

I have been in a lot of countries and I admit that our teenagers are some of the most rude, inconsiderate, and immature ones in the world. I believe this is mostly due to the society as a whole and the blame cannot be put on any one person or body. So in many ways I support our laws in restricting minors from using and definitely owning "deadly weapons".

On the other hand to be ignorant of the fact that parents will allow a child to have a "toy gun", and allow that child to do with it as they please until someone gets hurt, only hurts us. There is no amount of discussion on our parts that will change the fact that parents today are more ignorant than ever about what their children are doing and where their children are at.

So in my opinion we can either help ourselves by trying to properly educate these younger Airsofters into treating our sport and the tools of our sport with respect. Or we can say, "We will have no part in allowing children to play with us, and will not allow them to take part in our games".

I for one do not believe the latter will help us at all. So I will not agree to restricting all airsoft games to adults.

I do enjoy playing games with just adults, don't get me wrong, but I do not think that we are in any way helping ourselves by forcing these kids to play at their own risks (and ultimately ours). I feel that if we really want to support our sport, we need to try and educate all parties involved. And give them a “Safeâ€￾ (sort of) environment to play in.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Screwloose »
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Offline -MAD- SARGE

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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2003, 06:14:12 PM »
I agree with Frank strongly here.  Kids will find other places to play at or with other people if we do not allow them to participate with us.  Like people have said before if a parent buys a kid an airsoft gun the parents may not be responsible enough to know or care what their kid is doing with these guns.  So I suggest that when anyone who is under 18 comes to a non-AA game that we pair them up with an adult.  This adult would take the role of the mentor teaching airsoft educate, mentality, and responsibility.  The "Trainee" would need to stay within eyesight of his mentor at all times, unless decided by the mentor that the trainee has established him/herself as a responsible player. It would be nice if the same trainee and mentor could be paired up again for the next game, as so to build a relationship.  Because with that basis we can teach them respect and responsibility.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by -MAD- SARGE »


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Offline Ninja

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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2003, 06:30:58 PM »
I think that right now in this discussion we're missing the point.

Whether or not we think minor involvement is right or wrong, and whatever the merit of the laws are is completely inconsequential.  Not to be a fatalist, but even trying to get together all the airsofters to affect policy is moot as well.  We are simply too fringe, even in numbers.  

The point of discussion should be, as Frank has said several times, what are we going to do to keep it alive?  The laws are what they are and we should follow them regardless of whether or not we think they're good.  I'm not making this as a blanket statement, mind you, but no one could sit here and tell me they find these laws morally reprehensible.  This is not a major issue, even for us players.  No one will find themselves hopelessly adrift if airsoft is taken away.  Essentially, my point is that keep these laws in perspective the same way you should keep airsoft in perspective.

So let's be realistic, shall we? Let's do what we can to keep this adult game around for as long as we possibly can.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Ninja »
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Offline Pancho

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« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2003, 07:37:11 PM »
We sort of have that in the AA games with the 'sponsor' routine. I may be off on this, but I don't see it as being very effective, and we still have a minor playing without <i>parental supervision</i>. Often times the sponsor and sponsee (?) are on 2 different squads, 2 different fire teams, and often times tly posted by KenCasper</i>
<br />ok, Time to wade into the pooky again [;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">That line cracked me up! I know that this is a sensative issue and has been for some time.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KenCasper</i>
<br />If I as a minor were to take my parents rifle and go hunting with out their permision I would be breaking the law, but if they said it was ok, the I by myself could go hunting with it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Very true, to the best of my knowledge.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KenCasper</i>
<br />I think before this goes any farther in the discusion stage we need to look at EXACTLY how the laws regarding airsfot are worded. If it is worded that those under 18 may not purchase/ transport/possess and or own, then it means just that. If the law says that minors may not purchase them, but says nothing about possession or ownership, then it becomes up to the parents to buy them and decide if their children are mature enough for the item.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Agreed. Lets see what is says <i>exactly</i>, then decide what to do.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KenCasper</i>
<br />I think the thing most of us aren't realizing is it isn't AA policy that prevents minors from buying airsoft weapons, and until further research is done, keeping you from playing and possessing them too. It is the law, law that was voted on by either the house and senate of either state or federal level, voted on in an election, or produced thru a method called "Case Law" which happens in court. Laws may not be popular, or may not be fair, but they are the law. Yes you can work to change laws, but the problem is it is costly, hard, VERY time intensive, and there is no certinty of changing them. And until laws are changed you must still abide by them or pay the costs, fines, jail time, or other "creative" punishments.

So here is a chance for you younger players out there, us adults normally have precious lil time that is free. If you want to prove us wrong on the issue of minors playing show us the proof. Start looking up all the laws you can on airsoft and bb guns, since some localities word them the same. Show us that you can leagally play with out parental supervision.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Well said. Now, let's put a lid on the debate, and <u><i><b><font color="yellow">ACT</font id="yellow"></b></i></u>. Does <i>anyone</i> disagree with that? I will do whatever you want me to do, just tell me where and when.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Pancho »
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