Author Topic: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!  (Read 3729 times)

Offline Hoss

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inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« on: August 01, 2013, 12:29:34 AM »
Hey all. I have been doing some research to find the right BB (in terms of exact diameter) to run through my G&P (flat hopped) 420 mm(ish) inner barrel (guns shooting 400fps-ish with .20's btw) and I found only some helpful advice on other forums (but not enough to make a good decision). First thing is I'm looking for a good brand of Bio BB's. Second thing is that i'm trying to run .28g to .30g weight bbs. So the one thing I do know is that stock G&P inner barrels are 6.05mm to 6.08mm which is good for grouping but not so good for fps (but I rely on accuracy,consistency, and distance not fps, so its cool).. but my problem is that there's so many freak'n BB diameters that could change my results so I can't decide which bbs will best suit my inner barrel (which kills me because all airsoft bbs should be 6.00mm to start with, not 5.98 or 5.95, so that we can build inner barrels around the bb.. the diameter of airsoft bbs should have never changed) any way If anyone has used a G&P stock inner barrel or any comparable high quality 6.05-6.08's and understands all the gray matter science of airsoft accuracy please tell me which brand and more importantly: diameter bb has shown the best accuracy for you. thanks..
     
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Offline nukeduster

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 06:51:00 AM »
greater than +.05mm difference between inner barrel diameter and ammo diameter is preferred for maximum precision and accuracy. Any tighter and it risks jams and rattling.

Offline Exarach

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2013, 07:57:34 AM »
Hey all. I have been doing some research to find the right BB (in terms of exact diameter) to run through my G&P (flat hopped) 420 mm(ish) inner barrel (guns shooting 400fps-ish with .20's btw) and I found only some helpful advice on other forums (but not enough to make a good decision). First thing is I'm looking for a good brand of Bio BB's. Second thing is that i'm trying to run .28g to .30g weight bbs. So the one thing I do know is that stock G&P inner barrels are 6.05mm to 6.08mm which is good for grouping but not so good for fps (but I rely on accuracy,consistency, and distance not fps, so its cool).. but my problem is that there's so many freak'n BB diameters that could change my results so I can't decide which bbs will best suit my inner barrel (which kills me because all airsoft bbs should be 6.00mm to start with, not 5.98 or 5.95, so that we can build inner barrels around the bb.. the diameter of airsoft bbs should have never changed) any way If anyone has used a G&P stock inner barrel or any comparable high quality 6.05-6.08's and understands all the gray matter science of airsoft accuracy please tell me which brand and more importantly: diameter bb has shown the best accuracy for you. thanks..
     


And choosing a brand that is consistant, and higher quaility, is one of the most important factors, Bioval/SGM/BBBas./ect.
They will always give you a better group/placement then a lower quaility brand.
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Offline XavierMace

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2013, 09:20:27 AM »
which kills me because all airsoft bbs should be 6.00mm to start with, not 5.98 or 5.95, so that we can build inner barrels around the bb

No.  Just no.

Offline Hoss

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2013, 05:44:47 PM »
Ok but why do you say no? really.. I read that the only reason airsoft BB's ever started getting smaller was because inner barrels started getting smaller.. In my way of thinking why should the BB diameter have ever had to change just cuz someone wanted to start experimenting with different diameter inner barrels? The 6mm BB base line should have never changed so that intermediate players trying to sharpen their airsmithing skills don't have to think so damn hard about what freakin diameter BB to pair with the already complicated inner barrel selection process.. So correct me if I'm wrong but if airsoft is most commonly advertised as 6mm then is that not exactly what it should be?? (in terms of BB's) but thanks for any feedback because I'm still learning.     
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Offline XavierMace

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2013, 06:14:28 PM »
First off you are making way more of this than you should.

Secondly, you seem (correct me if I'm wrong) to be under the impression that when you buy a bag of BB's, all the BB's in that bag are the same size.  They aren't.  Manufacturing simply doesn't work that way (at this price range anyways).  You buy a bag of 5.95mm BB's.  The first one you pull out may be 5.95mm.  The second one may be 5.99mm or maybe 5.93mm.  You can find plenty of threads both here and on the internet in general regarding the diameter of BB's. 

To a large extent, you get what you pay for with ammo.  There's a reason the Maruzen Super Grandmasters are usually listed near the top of the list when talking about Airsoft Sniper Ammo despite their relatively ligher weight.  They've shown to be an extremely consistantly produced round for many, many years.  The diameter printed on the bag/box of BB's isn't an absolute diameter, it's a goal or average.

Once again, to a large extent, the same goes for barrels.  A 6.03mm barrel may not be 6.03mm all the way through.  Barrels such as PDI are almost twice the price as other tightbores.  But you'll find they have one of the most consistant diameters through their barrel length on the market.  With cheaper barrels the two things you typically run into is inconsistant diameters or cheap coatings that wearout/flake off.  There's really not much to the barrel selection.

The "No, just no" was regarding the thought of making barrels around ammo rather than ammo around barrels.  That would just be a disaster waiting to happen.  Basically if you buy decent ammo and decent barrels, you really shouldn't have to worry about it.  The only issue I've consistantly had is Vanguards shitty ammo in 6.01mm barrels.

Offline Hoss

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2013, 06:56:46 PM »
Ok I was thinking of getting Bioval .30g but airsoft atlanta advertises them as 5.92mm so theoretically I would need a 5.98mm inner barrel? haha ....but realistically would a 5.92mm bb work alright in a Angel custom 6.01mm? And also what is the best alternative BB to Biovals that can deliver the same performance since apparently people get all psychotic over Biovals.. I would love to run Biovals though because I hear they are the most accurate BB on the market. and are there any AZ fields or arena's that have banned Bioval?
   
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Offline Bob Z Moose

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2013, 11:21:42 PM »
No field has ever banned Biovals. Indoor arenas require that you use house ammo.

People like Biovals because they are the most consistent bio BB you can buy on the regular market.

This was something I wondered about when I first started airsoft as well. After a lifetime of real steel shooting, I couldn't believe that the BBs were a smaller diameter than the barrel. The way I take it (and it might be totally wrong, but...) is that at such low velocities the BBs need that extra room to consistently exit the barrel. If they were the actual diameter of the barrel, they would get stuck.

As for the consistency, BBs are mass produced in the tens of millions a day to meet demand and keep costs down. Consistency is sacrificed (within reason) to speed up production and keep the costs down.

A tighter diameter does not mean a tighter grouping. Several knowledgeable techs I've talked to all recommend a 6.03mm diameter barrel over the tighter 6.01mm. I've seen 6.03's shoot incredibly long ranges every accurately as well.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you I completely understand airsoft ballistics, but I would also like to point out that it's a toy gun that shoots plastic BBs. Unless you're running a bolt action sniper, you generally have the option of a quick follow up shot. I've seen test (online) of guns that shoot vital area sized targets consistently with stock 6.08mm barrels and Elite Force bios at 100'.

It really turns into a pissing contest after a while.
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Offline Old Dog

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 02:30:45 AM »
Another view on this thread,  theoretically verses actuality bb size verses barrel size, we must remember that what was used in the civil war were smooth bore muskets, we are using the same concept a round ball smaller of course fired from an unrifled smooth bore barrel air driven breech loading musket  if you will, FUN to SHOOT...

The fit in the civil war weapons was achieved by patching the ball with a piece of cloth and ramming it down the barrel the patch taking up the variations barrel size verses ball size, now we are able to just take the average bb size and average smooth bore size mixed with good luck, that is about what it is...

Having machinist experience, owning a lathe and mill, I have done some bb measuring with dial calipers and it is very enlightening as to size variation, turn a barrel gauge head and attach to a thin rod and one will find variations in barrel diameter...

There is much fun playing with our modern small smooth bore breech loading air driven muskets, the limitations we are just stuck with are the happy medium...

!!!ENJOY AIRSOFT!!!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 02:47:25 AM by Old Dog »
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Offline Exarach

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 08:40:05 AM »
In short, 6.01 is highly accurate at sub 100' ranges, then loses fast.
6.03 , gives a nice consistant cone all the way out, and generally tighter groups.
All this is also dependant on the the Manufacturer as well. a PDI 6.0x will beat a Matrix/angel 6.0x any day.

Take a look at air cushion, hop up theories, and the old TK twist stuff, good reading.
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Offline nukeduster

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 09:58:30 AM »
The only barrel that is 6.03mm I could recommend with any good conscience would be the Prometheus. Otherwise, other 6.03mm brands just aren't as accurate as wider bore barrels in the 6.05-6.10mm range.

I run PDI 6.05mm and 6.08mm barrels in all my my rifles, save for one, which has a Prom. 300mm 6.03mm, but thats a stubby M4 used in CQB.

A link to a good technical review of barrels done in Germany, for Madbull. While I usually don't like to quote sources whose potential to be biased is obvious, they do show that Madbull barrels, even ones hand picked for the test, don't do as well as compared to PDI (X-fire in Europe), or Prometheus in terms of roundness or precision.

http://www.madbullairsoft.com/images/Advertising/MadBull%20Barrel%20Report.pdf

Here is a small translation I did for the barrels I found relevant:

9. X-Fire (PDI)
Declared Value 6,01 mm (according to the manufacturer)
Absolute diameter 6,021 mm
Deviation of manufacture= 0.011
Change of inside diameter 0,002 mm
Material: Steel
Overall Rating 83%
Tuning potential 88%
The manufacturer X-Fire is known here in Germany is still under PDI, but calls himself for quite some time X-Fire.
The myth of the barrel, many have been waiting for is now unveiled.
A really good run, but again, the manufacturer promises a little more than it can deliver. Interesting when you look at
that Prometheus can even do a bit better. In terms of precision this is the best in this test run. But also significantly more expensive than the DBC runs!


10. Prometheus
Declared Value 6,03 mm (according to the manufacturer)
Absolute diameter 6,036 mm
Deviation of manufacturer = 0.006
Change of inside diameter 0,001 mm
Material: Steel
Total score = 75%
Tuning potential 68%
Prometheus makes all the other manufacturers see what is round.
The barrel has extremely small difference of only one micron speaks volumes. The barrel is shows the precision in terms of production that it ranks with the best that there is! A good tuning run, which only slightly worse is defined as the X-fire operation. Thoroughly recommended!
According to available information, the Nine Ball runs are identical to the Prometheus barrels. It is money well spent.

20. Madbull V2
Declared Value 6,03 mm
Absolute diameter = 6.016 mm
Deviation from manufacturer -0.014 (If interpreted as a deviation from zero)
Change of inside diameter = 0.004 mm
Material: Aluminum
Total score = 88%
Tuning Potential 85%
Again, the reader can see from the deviation from the manufacturer "that this course has something special."
This barrel is clearly very tight, as specified by the manufacturer, which is why two additional specimens were tested to make sure that this does not distort the rating to positive outliers. The Madbull V2 barrel is actually the tightest currently available on the market, that there is. The accuracy in the roundness of other manufacturers, however, it does not reach. X-Fire (PDI) and Prometheus demonstrate against what is technically feasible! Madbull v2 barrels are highly recommended for the money offered a very good choice and a smaller restriction. The smallest diameter in the entire test, the barrels tend to be susceptible to the use of non-quality ammunition.


Also, Aluminum barrels wear very poorly especially in Arizona, where dust and grit combine with the friction forces of the BB being thrust down the barrel to erode the barrels inner surface rapidly.

Offline Hoss

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 11:01:04 AM »
Well I'm glad that no one is bashing Biovals here so far (I personally don't see why anyone doesn't like them any way) and I know that the main reason people don't like Biovals is because they can break a mason Jar OMG! haha well I'd like to mention that just last week while I was dialing my new flat hop mod I accidentally shot and broke a mason jar using Golden Ball .30g white BB's so I guess if people don't go around shooting glass then there's no issue because all airsoft BB's have the potential to break glass... But anyway I am trying to get away from 6.01 inners because I'm looking for accuracy and consistency out to 300' I want to try a Prometheus or PDI 6.03 when I can afford it, But for now the only alternative is my G&P stock inner barrel (which I've heard good things about) But the only reason I would consider running my 6.01 is because Biovals are listed as 5.92mm (and probably vary +.01-.01mm) which is smaller than most other brands (as far as I know) and in theory means that in Biovals case would mean that the 6.01 may be as wide as you would want to go (in my own theory, which may be totally wrong haha).. and If I run these supposedly 5.92mm BB's in my stock 6.05-6.08mm inner barrel then to much air would escape? Because my G&P inner with the Biovals would be an average difference of 0.13mm? But Biovals matched with my Angel Custom 6.01mm would have a difference of 0.09mm so wouldn't that be better? Or should I go with a different BB all together?     
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Offline XavierMace

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 11:32:56 AM »
No field has ever banned Biovals. Indoor arenas require that you use house ammo.

Some have banned the silica/glass ones.

A tighter diameter does not mean a tighter grouping. Several knowledgeable techs I've talked to all recommend a 6.03mm diameter barrel over the tighter 6.01mm. I've seen 6.03's shoot incredibly long ranges every accurately as well.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you I completely understand airsoft ballistics, but I would also like to point out that it's a toy gun that shoots plastic BBs. Unless you're running a bolt action sniper, you generally have the option of a quick follow up shot. I've seen test (online) of guns that shoot vital area sized targets consistently with stock 6.08mm barrels and Elite Force bios at 100'.

No insult to whoever those techs are, but here's my issue with that.  I've been doing this a long time and one thing I've noticed is a lot of people reach conclusions without having all the facts or doing any real scientific testing and it gets accepted as fact.  Have the time they have no actual testing, just OMG, it's got a smaller number, it must be better.  No effort is made to try to understand why something is performing the way it is.  Some forums *cough* ASF *cough* are especially bad at this.  I've been airsofting for going on 10 years now.  We've got a few people on here who have been playing even longer.  That does not make our knowledge infalable, but it does mean we have a lot longer and broader experience to basis our opinions on.

The median quality of airsoft guns has dropped substancially since I started playing.  For lack of a better word "Old School" lines of thinking are based on a certain set of conditions.  A lot of the newer mindsets are based on different conditions without giving thought to why they are getting different results.  Let me give an example.

Player decides he wants to upgrade his JG/Echo1 M16's stock 6.06mm barrel.  He's, lets say, Cybergun .20 BB's from Walmart.  So he goes and buys a Madbull 6.01 tightbore and gets it installed.  He goes to his first game with it, has a few jams and the overall accuracy has decreased.  So, he goes and buys a Madbull 6.03, plays a game with it and has much better results.  So, he reaches the conclusion that 6.03 barrels are better than 6.01's.  However, I would also expect he could have pulled out that stock JG 6.06mm barrel and put in a Marui 6.08mm barrel and also see increased performance.  Not because I believe TM's have some magical power, but because they use more consistant barrels. 

The issue wasn't that a 6.01mm barrel is inheriantly worse than a 6.03mm barrel, it's he combined a shitty 6.01mm barrel with OK (at best) BB's.  I can tell you from experience that as far as 6.01mm barrels go, the Madbull's suck balls.  I've always been a big sniper rifle guy.  At this moment, I've got 5 Tanaka's.  I've had a couple of other Tanaka's as well as VSR based spring rifles, Ares based gas ones, and a 700fps AEG.  So far, I haven't found a better combo for long range accuracy then PDI 6.01's and SGM BB's.  Is that definitive proof that PDI 6.01's with SGM's are the best combo out there?  No.  But it's a decent amount of experience to say it's an effective combo.  You'll find no shortage of people out there running PDI 6.01's in their high end builds.  That said, I wouldn't recommend running them in everything either.

You also have to consider what your goals and expectations are.  Some people consider torso accuracy at 100' adiquate, or even good.    I consider paper plate targets at 100' to be bare minimum.  Some people consider hitting their target once at that range constitutes that as their effective range.  I want at least 7 out of 10 to consider that my effective range.  That's why if you look at the reviews I've done over the years, I've attempted to use the same target at the same range for all my reviews.  That gives you a baseline to compare to.  If you're looking for 300', there

Don't get me wrong, there's always things to learn.  But a lot of people have opinions with no basis in reality that defy the laws of physics.

Offline nukeduster

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 11:57:02 AM »
Here is an average gun I built a short while ago for a customer. I test fire every rifle I build, this is just a random one.

Grouping of 7 shots taken at 75 feet, open m16 sights, standing unsupported



This is bare minimum accuracy I would consider acceptable on anything I would build or run. And being that its standing unsupported I consider it to be not quite scientific, but still representative of the overall ability of the rifle.

Offline Hoss

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Re: inner barrel vs bb brand and diameter fiasco - HELP!
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 03:24:44 PM »
Awesome.. I am not necessarily a sniper more of an assaulter by this I mean I'm currently running a G&P M4 with a 20'' outer barrel fitted with a 4x ACOG and offset iron sights and my play style is semi auto only so I'm definitely looking for the longest range accurate grouping as possible at at least 250'. and all the advice is really helping however I cant afford a PDI 6.01 right now.. So here's my only two options: A stock G&P 420mm inner and a Angel Custom 500(ish)mm 6.01 and I am able to buy the best of bbs any price range.

So knowing that: what type of BB (ANY BRAND) should I use with either one of my two inner barrels ^ to give me the best longer range accuracy and consistency?? (until I can get the PDI-SGM setup XM mentioned)       
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