Israeli Aggression in Lebanon...

[VoodooXIII2]

:evil: for the misleading topic name. Israel is not aggressing Lebanon, they are defending their sovereignity, attempting to retrieve two of their soldiers, against an enemy that is being housed in another country.

It really depends on how you define the word 'agression'. Look it up on dictionary.com, and you'll find 3 definitions:

   1. The act of initiating hostilities or invasion.
   2. The practice or habit of launching attacks.
   3. Hostile or destructive behavior or actions.

Granted, number three may be extremely controversial with the issue at hand, I believe the second and first definition, the ones which I was personally implying with the topic name, are used perfectly for the situation.

Now, don't get me wrong. I totally agree with you about Israel protecting its sovereignty. The fact the Lebanon has failed to protect its own has an even bigger motive for such actions. However, when an invasion force is sent outside of a country's own borders, onto another nation's territory, one who hasn't given it permission to do so, it's considered an agressive response, from either side of the grass you're looking from.

Personally, I think that no state should be judged initially on their response to a given action, but rather, their justification for such reaction.

[The Cartographer]

Personally, I think that no state should be judged initially on their response to a given action, but rather, their justification for such reaction.

Looks to me like Isreal has a mighty fine justification seeing as how they had two of their people kidnapped. Plus the fact that they've been dealing with all this crap for 'nye five decades.

[Farslayer]

Cut and paste this, or better yet, figure out how to imbed it:

mms://media.a7.org/a7radio/misc/video/06/qana.wmv


Hmmm....wonder why they are bombing civilian buildings?

Lebenon has hosted these guys for 10 years now and are guilty by association.  If they want Israel to stop, fucking kick out Hezbolah.  Simple.  25 kids died today and it isn't Israel's fault.  The blood is on the hands of the Lebonese government, Iran and Syria.

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

Actually, Hezbollah is a saving grace for Lebanon. They are the primary reason that Israel was ousted from their 15 year occupation in 2000. In fact, the political wing of Hezbollah has engendered some fantastic social programs, such as healthcare. I believe that this is what Hamas is trying to do in Israel. Ironically, this sort of thing has happened in the US. In the 60s and 70s there was a violent street gang in Chicago known as the Vice Lords. For many years they had been having turf wars, and were killing each other and other people. However, they soon realized that they were just a destructive influence on their neighborhood and cleaned up their act. They implemented teen recreation centers and initiated community welfare programs to keep kids out of gangs. They were also the first and only street gang to ever become incorporated. Finally, who can forget the Continental Army, definitely a terrorist group in the eyes of Great Britain.

Yes, Hezbollah was extraordinarily stupid for capturing those two soldiers. However, there are US soldiers and civilians captured in Iraq by terrorist groups there every day, and you don't see the US government leveling a city to get them out. Israel was just waiting for an excuse to bomb Hezbollah, but that doesn't give them the right to destroy civilian infrastructure, like bridges, power, etc.

[Farslayer]

Drug runners and cartels in Mexico build churches, schools and hospitals.  It doesn't change the fact that they deal poison over our borders.

Hezbola is a terrorist organization plain and simple.  They need to be eradicated and any city, village or building, occupied or unoccupied  that gives them safe harbour razed.

Simple.  Kill them and kill those who support their cause.

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

Drug runners and cartels in Mexico build churches, schools and hospitals.  It doesn't change the fact that they deal poison over our borders.

Hezbola is a terrorist organization plain and simple.  They need to be eradicated and any city, village or building, occupied or unoccupied  that gives them safe harbour razed.

Simple.  Kill them and kill those who support their cause.

What cartels build churches and schools? Are they a part of the elected government, like Hezbollah, or Hamas? The only thing that I am saying is that there is a militant arm of the organization and a political arm of it. Most Lebanese want the militant arm of the organization out, not necessarily the political arm.

[Farslayer]

Drug runners and cartels in Mexico build churches, schools and hospitals.  It doesn't change the fact that they deal poison over our borders.

Hezbola is a terrorist organization plain and simple.  They need to be eradicated and any city, village or building, occupied or unoccupied  that gives them safe harbour razed.

Simple.  Kill them and kill those who support their cause.

What cartels build churches and schools? Are they a part of the elected government, like Hezbollah, or Hamas? The only thing that I am saying is that there is a militant arm of the organization and a political arm of it. Most Lebanese want the militant arm of the organization out, not necessarily the political arm.

Go 25 km south of the border into Sonora and you'll see what I mean.  These drop off villages are financed by drug runners from Mexico and South America.  The build a hospital or a church and the people look the other way.  Believe me...and they are as corrupt and ELECTED as any "organization" over in the Middle East.  Read a book and see where Hezbollah came from. You'll find out that the foundation was set up out of Iraq, ironically by the same sect of Muslims that are "US friendly" at the moment.

Do you actually think you'll be able to seperated the political from the social arm?  Where do you think the social arm gets the money to build the hospitals?  Don't fool yourself.  It's black and white.

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

Hamas and Hezbollah were not "elected," they were actually elected by the people of their country. Hezbollah was formed in response to the Israeli occupation. The group itself has only been around since the 1980s. Again, there are no cartels that I am aware of that are actually part of the elected government, save for Pablo Escobar himself in Colombia in the 1980s, which is a totally different story. Why is it not possible that the political and militant arms of these organizations are separate?

I have said it before and I will say it again, perhaps the US just needs to completely and totally pull out from all countries in the region and let them fight it out and see what happens. At least then we would have no allegiances to any countries. Our country is being absolutely held hostage by everything that is going on over there. I really hope that China becomes the next world power because I am damn tired of having the entire world turn to us to fix every goddamn problem in it.

[Farslayer]

So when you said,

Are they a part of the elected government, like Hezbollah, or Hamas?

you didn't mean it?

 Don't forget that Syria occupied Lebanon for over a decade under President Hafez Assad and would simply line up Hezbollah and shoot them when they got out of line.

America has politcal, social and religious ties to Israel that are too strong to break.

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

So when you said,

Are they a part of the elected government, like Hezbollah, or Hamas?

you didn't mean it?

 Don't forget that Syria occupied Lebanon for over a decade under President Hafez Assad and would simply line up Hezbollah and shoot them when they got out of line.

America has politcal, social and religious ties to Israel that are too strong to break.

Therein lies the problem. Until we can break ties with the Israelis, these radical Muslims will never stop attacking us and our allies.

[Farslayer]

Not going to happen man.

[warlock]

So when you said,

Are they a part of the elected government, like Hezbollah, or Hamas?

you didn't mean it?

 Don't forget that Syria occupied Lebanon for over a decade under President Hafez Assad and would simply line up Hezbollah and shoot them when they got out of line.

America has politcal, social and religious ties to Israel that are too strong to break.

Therein lies the problem. Until we can break ties with the Israelis, these radical Muslims will never stop attacking us and our allies.

LOL. You actually believe Israel is the cause of the Muslim world hating us? Holy cow. Even the Democrats have given up that talking point.

Here's a clue.

1) Radical Fundamentalism (I honeslty don't care which type) is bad.

2) You should go to Lebanon and proclaim that you hate Israel. See how they react. They'll kidnap you, videotape your killing, and discard your body like a piece of trash. Not because you're American, not because you're anything. Because you're not Muslim. And even if you ARE Muslim, then if you don't preach their version of Islamic Fundamentalism, you're *still* an infidel and must die (and be taped and broadcasted, apparently. I thought Mohammed wasn't around for TV but I could be wrong).

3) Middle Eastern Terrorism can not be solved by appeasement, talking, or promising. Violence begets violence and all that but the only way those guys will sit still and listen is for someone to step in and show them what true horror actually is. If you show that you can and WILL go WAY farther than they can on the scale of horrific, they will calm right down and listen like good little children. I'm sorry but war is not pretty, and this is war. Raze cities, destroy cultures, wipe out entire areas of map. We knew this lesson, and knew it well in World War II. Why we forgot how we got the whole world to sit down and listen to reason, I don't know. But we have forgotten and the textbooks today just don't do World War II justice. We were regarded as assholes by most of the world after World War II. We didn't care then, and we should stop caring now. In the end the good in the action will be apparent.

Point in case. During the golden years of the Klintonian presidency we arranged to have Israel give up Gaza and move out. What happened once they moved out? The Palestinians moved into Gaza and used it as their new forward base to launch attacks on Israel. Most of those nations out there that we have brokered peace with for Israel, have violated that peace before the ink dried.

They will not give up till everyone who isn't them is dead. It's a very simple fact and historically proven. Everytime we've given them anything they spit in our face and ask for something more. Now I think it is time we just leave them alone and let them broker terms of peace with Israel directly, in a fashion to be chosen by Israel (currently, that involves bombing cities and storming the country). If they want Israel dead so bad, let them try.

Unlike us, I believe Israel is resolved enough to go to every length necessary to win this fight. And I'd like to see them do it.

[Cheeze_IZ_G00d]

I know, which is why this whole argument is pointless.

[stoneaglewolf]

Just a couple of notes:

Some of the images of the Lebonese Children killed were 10 years old.

The building blew up after the airstrike was over.

Hezbollah paid civilains to build extra rooms on thier houses to store and luanch the missles from.

Israel selfimposed a cease fire on the air strikes to investigate the deaths of the children, Hezbollah continued and launched a counter attack on ground forces, forcing Israel to resume air strikes.

Hezbollah was not elected unless you consider holding a gun to your head while you vote ok. Hezbollah instilled so much fear into the Lebonese during the Syrian occupation, then started the charitry side to keep them from rebelling rasie funds and look good, and finally went poltical for more control and keep the Lebonese government out.

It sounds like the largest account of the Stockholm Syndrome I've ever seen.

[Farslayer]

Some good arguments here boys.  Thanks a lot.