[TimW]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Paco</i>
Are you then saying that it's justifiable for airsoft retailers to sell to minors for profit motives?
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Not necessarily...however, what other reason would a retailer sell anything to anyone, other than profit?  Is a different motive better for selling to minors?

What I was getting at is that the profit motive is the only thing that keeps retailers in business.  The free-market will decide whether that retailer continues....boycotting those retailers known to sell to minors w/o parental permission is one method.  But, as with most consumers, the anything-to-save-a-buck motive of shoppers often overlooks little things like this.

Example?  Wal-mart.  Nearly everything is now manufactured in China.  I constantly hear people complain about it.  But they still shop there. Why? Low prices.

I am not saying selling airsoft stuff to minors is right, wrong or appropriate.  I don't do it.

But I recall, as a 10 year old, that I had a BB gun, and used to go off hunting birds with it....by myself.  I got my first rifle at 15, and used to go shooting....by myself.  Those items were sold to my folks for...profit motive.  I currently know several teenagers I'd trust with real guns far more than several adults I know.

If someone got hurt because some idiot shot their buddy with a BB, well, the shooter had the snot beat out of him.  But usually, even at 10, we knew not to shoot each other with these things.

One *could* make an argument that you all are setting a bad example with airsoft, since you are showing that it's ok to shoot each other with BBs and are demonstrating violence.

Well, heck, we had rock fights as kids and someone eventually got whacked on the noggin, got a lecture and some stitches and told "duh..being hit with a rock hurts...idiot, don't have rock fights, and it won't happen."

But in this day and age, when the entire idea of personal responsibility is a foreign concept (from either the minor OR the parent), that self-regulation is key.

So, if there is a retailer selling to minors, they need to be outed and hit HARD but people like you.  Otherwise the legislators will do it for you.  They'll do it anyway because they're hoplophobes, but that's another story.

So, to answer your question:  Yes, it's ok for retailers to sell to minors for profit motive....as long as the parent is involved in the transaction.  What happens after that is beyond your control.  

Tim,
waiting for someone to misread what I've written...wouldn't be the first time.

[Wojo]

This whole topic is part of the reason i decided to sell my stuff and wait for a couple years before i start back up.  For the most part kids are immature and it ruins it for the few kids that can handle mature stuff (i.e. airsoft).  It is a great sport and i would hate to see it go down the drains because of some punk kids playing with aeg's in appartment complexes.  Hopefully the sport does not get banned and the adults are still able to enjoy it.

[Legs]

One point I want to add here is that it won't matter (should the law become more defined) if a kid is actually behaving in an immature manner or not.  Just the act of participation can spark the blast...

[leakingpen]

tim, im in a lot of agreement with you.  but when it comes to REAL guns, there are some "reasonable" laws that ARE reasonable.  and there should be some regarding airsoft.  i've looked at people talking about the fps theyve boosted their weapons too.  do you realize that some of these heavily modified aeg
's, if loaded with 6mm steel ball bearings, are lethal at short range?


also
Example? Wal-mart. Nearly everything is now manufactured in China. I constantly hear people complain about it. But they still shop there. Why? Low prices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
off topic,  but after learing about the damage wal mart does to the local economy through their hiring practices, ect, ive boycotted them.  
back on topic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
my father was a marine.  and a gun nut.  had 12 rifles, 5 shotguns, a couple of large revolvers.
needless to say, I learned to shoot at a young age.  First shouldered a .22 rifle at the age of 6.  But first I was taught about safety.  This was done in a conclusive way.  I was taken out to the desert, where my father set up several 2/4's leaned up against a rock in line, and a few small watermelon against teh ground.  he fired one rifle into the line of 2/4's.  at distance, i watched them bounce up.  we then walked up and examined the slowly larger hole, and how far they penetrated.  we then went back to the firing line, and he put mushrooms into the watermellons.  i got to watch them explode into a fine mist and a few random chunks.  he turned to me and said "son, thats what could happen to your head if you arent careful with a gun.  


needless to say, teh lesson was well imprinted.
someone in the thread made the statement that airsoft guns need to be treated with the same respect as a real gun.  and thats what it boils down to.  respect for your weapon.  and age is not a big factor in said respect.I know more than a few adults I wouldn't trust with a firearm, and a few teens I would.

[Paco]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by leakingpen</i>
<br /> and age is not a big factor in said respect.I know more than a few adults I wouldn't trust with a firearm, and a few teens I would.

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...but that's just it.  Responsibility and respect are SUBJECTIVE - which is why it won't work to base a law, rule or regulation on.  Someone who seems responsible to YOU with firearms, may not seem responsible to ME with firearms.  OBJECTIVE measures are needed, and AGE is pretty much the only way to do that.

It's kind of a catch-22.

[leakingpen]

sorry, im working in a text editor and pasting in.  (at work)  i lost a section i wrote on licensing similar to car licenses.  something i support for real firearms, and would probably support for airsoft.

[azsarge]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by leakingpen</i>
<br />sorry, im working in a text editor and pasting in.  (at work)  i lost a section i wrote on licensing similar to car licenses.  something i support for real firearms, and would probably support for airsoft.
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Some of us will agree with you.  On the other hand, there are a few somewhat fanatical individuals here who will say that the gov't already knows too much.  They might say they do not want to offer any more control to an alreay too-large gov't.  Of course, I am not one of these people, but they DO exist!

[leakingpen]

honestly, i AM one of those fanatics.  im radical left wing.  (well, except a couple of issues.  Like firearms.)  I feel that the gov DOES know too much.  At least, in some areas.  TIA fightened me, I've written letters to congressman against the "patriot" act.  The only place the gov should have that kind of power is in direct protection of the public.  preventing people from hurting each other, okay.  from hurting themselves, no.  but thats me.  looking at the posts on some of these airsoft forums, i can tell there are some nra style guys around.  ahh well.  takes all types

[Harley]

NRA, who us??? Instead of the government stepping in to protect us from ourselves they need to protect our boarders first.  Stop the overwhelming flow of illegal immagrants from entering the US, and maybe along with them a few potential terroists.  Guns don't kill people do.  Licensing guns like cars... NO WAY! License the criminals so their chances of obtaining a gun is lessened.  We already have more laws on the books than can be effectivly enforced.  I say get rid of the frivilous laws and get back to basics.  If you mess up with a gun you pay the penalty, but don't crucify everyone else as well.  Do we condemn Ford, Chrysler or GMC and everyone that owns their cars because one idiot drunk driver kills a family with one, no, we prosecute the idiot driving it!  End of story.

[leakingpen]

harley, we require someone driving a car to have a license, thus proving that they have, at least at one time, known how to drive properly and responsibly.  why not the same for guns?
im not saying licensing the guns.  im saying licensing the users.  

and illegal immigrants.  i dunno about you, but i can trace back to a guy who came over on the mayflower in my family.  guess what.  teh indians didnt invite him.  that makes him an illegal immigrant.

better idea, how about we open our borders.  or perhaps do some work to get mexico a better place to live so that we dont have people coming over.  (btw, not a single verified terroist who has acted in teh us has come across the borders illegaly. every single verrified terrorist from 9/11, at least, the ones who havent later popped up somewhere saying "no, im alive!"  had valid green cards.)

and criminals ARE catalouged to make if more difficult for them to get guns legally.  it WOULD be impossible, except for the gun show exceptions the nra pushes through every law.

[Harley]

Driving a 4000lb automobile on a public roadway is quite different that someone taking a gun to a public shooting range.  The 2nd amendment protects my GOD GIVEN RIGHT to own a firearm, show me where in the constitution it says the same thing for driving a car, which by the way is a privilege NOT a right.  And exactly what GUN Show exceptions are you referring to??? If you're referring to private sales, well anyone can do that on any given day right out of the newpaper in case you din't know that.  A gun show just gives you (read private citizen, not a dealer) a wider audience for less cost.  So don't even go there with me.

[Harley]

Next thing they'll want to do is license us to be able to speak in public!

[Raith]

The 2nd protects the 1st...

[Harley]

That's my point.

[leakingpen]

first off, a firearm is a LOT more deadly when used improperly.  we have a local law that outlaws random gunfire into teh air.  the fact that we NEED such a law tells me that theres people with a firearm that should not have them.  

now, funny that you used the term "god given"
since according to the first ammendment of the constitution, congress can make no law regarding religion.  therefore, the us government cannot recognize ANY right as a god given one.

in addition, read the ENTIRE second ammendment.  A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

in addition, lets look at some quotes from discussion surrounding the very creation.

First Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights, 1788
To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them...
     By: Richard Henry Lee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Massachusetts U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788
The Constitution of the United States shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.
     By: Samuel Adams

Letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823
I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves, and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise that control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion.
    By: Thomas Jefferson

All that is good
Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and the keystone under independence... The rifle and pistol are equally indispensable... The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good.
    By: George Washington



that last one does nothing for my point, but ive always liked it.

a well regulated militia.  argu it anyway you like, but look at what jefferson said.  "but to inform their discretion"  and you'll find similar quotes all over teh place.  teh founding fathers knew what they were saying.  they were saying, people need to have a firearm, and know how to use it, and if they dont know how to use it, TRAIN THEM TO USE IT PROPERLY.  i fail to see how ensuring that anyone with a firearm is ensured to be able to operate it properly goes against that spirit.

as to your comment of how dangerous it is to simply go to teh firing range, i leave a link for your perusal.  www.darwinawards.com

and if you're a hunter, you KNOW that many people hunt while drunk.  personal opinion, a person who is willing to attempt a firearm while drunk no longer fits the moniker "peacable citizen"