what brand to choose?

[extremist]

Alright, I am debating on what brand m16 to get.

CA- I love ca and wouldnt mind another. but how are there new models?
I have a a ca m15a4 carbine since 2007 and i have no problems whats so ever.
I also like the fact that i put a m120 in it a year ago with stock parts and its still running fine?

G&G- I have heard mixed reviews and have heard that they are better than CA but someone fill me in on this please.

Kwa- i have heard nothing but greatness about them and i love the fact they are lipo redy and already shoot 400 fps out of
the box.But i dont like the trades but if they are as good as i hear that would be fine.

ICS- Xavier help out on this.What i have read i really like the 2 piece gearbox's and the motors.But other than that i have read and heard that they are avreage.

Its been awhile since i have bought a new gun so its time to catch up.
Thanks in advance.
Branden

[axisofoil]

KWA's are extremely solid, shoot well out of the box, and their hop-up is better than the other M4/M15/M16 series rifles.

I personally prefer everything G&G at the moment, but that's personal, and I'm just kind of addicted to that brand at the moment. lol.

The split gearbox on the ICS models make them a dream to work on. (Imagine changing a spring without your shims exploding out of your gearbox).
Stock, they're nothing special, except very solid and well built, and they're strong performers... just not outstanding out of the box. But they take to upgrades extremely well (you can even buy new upper gearboxes now so you can hot swap to different fps ranges. ).

CA's SOUND the best. by that, I mean they have a much more satisfying, deeper tone when firing than the rest of them. idk why... just what I've seen. They're kind of hard to work on (gearboxes are terribly difficult to squeeze out of the lower receivers), but once again, solid guns... good performers. Just don't get the sportlines, and you should still have somewhat decent internals (I have heard they are slipping, but I can't confirm it)

[Toast]

You left out a good AEG that fit's into the same catagory, G&P.
IMHO I think the G&P Defender is one of the best buys out there right now.

[XavierMace]

Depends what you are defining as average.  

I'm not really a fan of G&G although the CM's are nice for Sportlines.  I don't care for CA at all.  I know some people on here swear by their CA CQBR's but I'm just not seeing it.

As far as KWA vs ICS.  "LiPo ready" is just marketing, plain and simple.  There's nothing on a KWA M4 that makes it any more "LiPo ready" than any other high end AEG.  I run the exact same LiPo's on my ICS guns as my KWA.  My ICS Sig has been run exclusively on an 11.1v 20C 4400mah LiPo.  Not a single issue yet.  I friend of mine went about 60k rounds through his 552 on an 11.1v before the piston stripped.

That said...

In most regards I would say the KWA is a superior gun.  KWA's externals are higher quality, although the KWA trades are tacky.  Both ICS and KWA's are rock solid internals stock.  Both usually have no issue running 50k rounds without failure.  The KWA is definitely more accurate out of the box and may chrono a little higher FPS wise out of the box depending on which particular model you are getting.  But all that takes is a quick spring swap to solve that which is a piece of cake on the ICS.  I love my KWA SR-10, it's probably the best stock AEG I've ever used.  However, with that said and done, I keep coming back to the ICS because time is money and no other standard M4 AEG can match an ICS M4 for ease of repair/upgrade.  If you want a gun you can just pull out of the box and run with it, get the KWA.  If you want a gun you tweak and putter around with, get the ICS.  If you decide to go the ICS route, send me a PM and I can get you a deal on one.

[Whiskey11]

I'm with Xavier on this.  ICS is a fantastic manufacturer, they are quite literraly an outer barrel swap away from being one of the most solid AEG's on the market.  I recently purchased my 3rd ICS M16 (or variant, first two where M4's) and swapped the outer barrel for a Guarder Multipeice and it made the ICS stupid solid.  Swapped in my 400 FPS upper gearbox, a tightbore, hop up rubber and nub and she shoots like a dream.  Not terribly expensive to upgrade and never having to touch the lower gearbox is a DREAM.

In terms of KWA, I'm not a fan.  I'm not sure their bodies are any better than an ICS, they certainly feel heftier, but that doesnt mean squat, at least not in my books.  The main turnoff of the KWA is the fact that they advertise their guns as "LiPo" ready, which to me agrivates me.  As Xavier pointed out, any gun can take a LiPo, 7.4v's are no more harmfull than a 9.6v is to the internals... 11.1v's are a different ball game, most guns can use an 11.1v, although I found my ICS overspun enough to give me 2 round burst in semi auto.  KWA Also used low C rating and low mAh 11.1v's which really are no mor taxing on the internals than a quality 9.6v large NiMH.  Having seen the internals I was not terribly imrpessed either, they certainly are functional, but nothing to OO and AAAhhh about.

G&P, where to begin.  I love the externals on G&P's, they are SEXY.  Unfortunately their newest guns have serious issues with destroying gear shafts and pistons.  The G&P M120 motor is partially to blame with the high ROF.  I've got a G&P in my possession for repairs that has a chronic issue of piston stripping.  Not entirely sure why, no amoutn of angle of engagement adjustments etc have solved the issue entirely.  Even killed a Prometheus piston...  I digress.  They are quality guns when left stock and ran on an 8.4v... with a 9.6v you tend to start pushing the limitations of the gears and the piston though.

G&G makes solid guns, they are truely nice guns.  Their newest guns are very high quality.  I've lost all interest in standard V2 gearboxes as I clearly favor my split gearbox over any standard V2.  Having said that, G&G's have never let me down.  Their internals are rock solid and they usually come very well shimmed out of the box.

CA, BLEH... I purchased a CA M15A4 SPR while I was in AZ and had nothing bud headaches with it.  When I finally got it working again reliably, I sold it as it had that nistalgia in my mind that just bleh.  I also have owned TWO CA M14's, both had the same issue the M15A4 SPR had.  They would not pull an SP120 spring on an 8.4v reliably.  The trigger contacts where to blame, as well as the really BLEh motor.  Now I hear the X-series CA's are supposed to be decent, but I'm firmly back on my CA Hating train.  I never had any luck getting them to work.  To this day, I rarely recommend CA's... after my three and the countless number of CA's I've torn apart for piston strippings, broken gears and shoddy motors and wiring, they just dont sit well.  Their metal bodies have a tendancy to flake paint like a rusting Chevy in the pacific northwest and are made of ok quality.  Their motors sound like crap and are incredibly whiney.  

I just never saw why people liked them so much?  I guess others have also had much better luck than I have.  

I say, G&G or ICS, cant go wrong with either.

[busta_cap]

I'm with Xavier on this.  ICS is a fantastic manufacturer, they are quite literraly an outer barrel swap away from being one of the most solid AEG's on the market.  I recently purchased my 3rd ICS M16 (or variant, first two where M4's) and swapped the outer barrel for a Guarder Multipeice and it made the ICS stupid solid.  Swapped in my 400 FPS upper gearbox, a tightbore, hop up rubber and nub and she shoots like a dream.  Not terribly expensive to upgrade and never having to touch the lower gearbox is a DREAM.

In terms of KWA, I'm not a fan.  I'm not sure their bodies are any better than an ICS, they certainly feel heftier, but that doesnt mean squat, at least not in my books.  The main turnoff of the KWA is the fact that they advertise their guns as "LiPo" ready, which to me agrivates me.  As Xavier pointed out, any gun can take a LiPo, 7.4v's are no more harmfull than a 9.6v is to the internals... 11.1v's are a different ball game, most guns can use an 11.1v, although I found my ICS overspun enough to give me 2 round burst in semi auto.  KWA Also used low C rating and low mAh 11.1v's which really are no mor taxing on the internals than a quality 9.6v large NiMH.  Having seen the internals I was not terribly imrpessed either, they certainly are functional, but nothing to OO and AAAhhh about.

G&P, where to begin.  I love the externals on G&P's, they are SEXY.  Unfortunately their newest guns have serious issues with destroying gear shafts and pistons.  The G&P M120 motor is partially to blame with the high ROF.  I've got a G&P in my possession for repairs that has a chronic issue of piston stripping.  Not entirely sure why, no amoutn of angle of engagement adjustments etc have solved the issue entirely.  Even killed a Prometheus piston...  I digress.  They are quality guns when left stock and ran on an 8.4v... with a 9.6v you tend to start pushing the limitations of the gears and the piston though.

G&G makes solid guns, they are truely nice guns.  Their newest guns are very high quality.  I've lost all interest in standard V2 gearboxes as I clearly favor my split gearbox over any standard V2.  Having said that, G&G's have never let me down.  Their internals are rock solid and they usually come very well shimmed out of the box.

CA, BLEH... I purchased a CA M15A4 SPR while I was in AZ and had nothing bud headaches with it.  When I finally got it working again reliably, I sold it as it had that nistalgia in my mind that just bleh.  I also have owned TWO CA M14's, both had the same issue the M15A4 SPR had.  They would not pull an SP120 spring on an 8.4v reliably.  The trigger contacts where to blame, as well as the really BLEh motor.  Now I hear the X-series CA's are supposed to be decent, but I'm firmly back on my CA Hating train.  I never had any luck getting them to work.  To this day, I rarely recommend CA's... after my three and the countless number of CA's I've torn apart for piston strippings, broken gears and shoddy motors and wiring, they just dont sit well.  Their metal bodies have a tendancy to flake paint like a rusting Chevy in the pacific northwest and are made of ok quality.  Their motors sound like crap and are incredibly whiney.  

I just never saw why people liked them so much?  I guess others have also had much better luck than I have.  

I say, G&G or ICS, cant go wrong with either.

Have to step in here cause you are confused about electrical circuitry.... The voltage is going to affect two things, motor speed which translates into ROF, and motor speed with torque because of extra voltage which results in, well, torque..So a higher voltage battery will turn over the motor quicker. Now, the brushed motors inside AEG's are pretty limited on what they can do..But they should be, if you put a brushless setup in a standard v2 gearbox, it would probably destroy it in about a bag of BB's.

As far as the mAH rating of the battery, that is the rating of the capacity, not the AMPERAGE..I cannot stress this enough..capacity total, not at any given second.
That means a 2000mAH battery will produce 2000milliamps(2amps) for one hour. Now here is where this gets a little tricky.. The new li-poly(lithium-polymer) cells typically can put out UP to 20A at any given time..So if your gun is drawing out 5amps, than your battery that has a CAPACITY of 2200mAH will probably only last about 10 minutes straight.

[XavierMace]

He might have gotten the abbreviations a bit mixed up, the point he was trying to make is that KWA's "LiPo Ready" comes with the disclaimer that you shouldn't exceed 15C which is rather low for a LiPo.  All the LiPo's I have are at least 20C.  A 7.4v 25C LiPo is no more dangerous than a 9.6v 30a NiMh.

[Whiskey11]

No, I'm not confused about electrical circuitry.  I've been doing gearbox work since I started, I understand the concepts.  Your ROF is determiend by your voltage, and the torque by the power of your battery based on what the motor needs to operate at 100% efficiency.  If your gun only draws 15 amps, thats all it's going to pull from the battery.  If what you were saying about a higher voltage battery creates a higher ROF, then why does a 9.6v Mini often times have less ROF than an 8.4v Large?  It's a matter of Power of the pack in question.  Most 9.6v Mini's (assuming 1500-2000 mAh) have a C rating of roughly 10C meaning the pack will output roughly 15-20 amps depending on the mAh of the pack.  Gratned not all NiMH's follow the same rough 10C rating, but it's a solid generalization for most batteries.  

I'm not entirely sure I follow why you brought up mAh ratings, I never mentioned them anywhere in my post.  You are correct, mAh is a measurement of Capacity of the pack in total, however the C rating of a pack DOES determine the Amperage of the battery when multiplied by the Ah of the battery, as I stated before, generally for NiMH cells thats 10C, which means dropping off two 0's from the pack's mAh gives you the discharge rate.  

LiPo's definetly output more than 20 Amps continuous.  The C rating on my 7.4v is 15C, at 3000 mAh, thats 45 Amps of potential discharge contunious, with a 25C burst rating (up to 70amps when "stressed" like at start up)  Low quality LiPo's such as ones produced by airsoft manufacturers (correction, rebranded by airsoft manufacturers) often have Low C ratings and low mAh, which gives us a low amperage.  When a motor maxes out the battery pack, the pack discharges quicker causing decreased battery life and a slower ROF than if it were maxed out.  (More support that Torque is a product of Amperage and Voltage (Power))  If you run a mini 9.6v on a gun that draws a lot of juice, lets say a Systema Magnum equpied M14 with an SP150 spring, the mini will produce a significantly lower ROF than that of an 8.4v Large with a higher discharge rate because it can max the motor's "needed" amperage to operate at max torque.  A motor operating at max torque can get to it's max RPM's quicker and easier and maintain that RPM for a longer period of time.

For the record, a well tuned AEG or a stock TM will pull around 12-18 amps continuous in Full Auto.  In Semi auto, even some stock guns can pull up to 25 amps or more.

[busta_cap]

No, I'm not confused about electrical circuitry.  I've been doing gearbox work since I started, I understand the concepts.  Your ROF is determiend by your voltage, and the torque by the power of your battery based on what the motor needs to operate at 100% efficiency.  If your gun only draws 15 amps, thats all it's going to pull from the battery.  If what you were saying about a higher voltage battery creates a higher ROF, then why does a 9.6v Mini often times have less ROF than an 8.4v Large?  It's a matter of Power of the pack in question.  Most 9.6v Mini's (assuming 1500-2000 mAh) have a C rating of roughly 10C meaning the pack will output roughly 15-20 amps depending on the mAh of the pack.  Gratned not all NiMH's follow the same rough 10C rating, but it's a solid generalization for most batteries.  

I'm not entirely sure I follow why you brought up mAh ratings, I never mentioned them anywhere in my post.  You are correct, mAh is a measurement of Capacity of the pack in total, however the C rating of a pack DOES determine the Amperage of the battery when multiplied by the Ah of the battery, as I stated before, generally for NiMH cells thats 10C, which means dropping off two 0's from the pack's mAh gives you the discharge rate.  

LiPo's definetly output more than 20 Amps continuous.  The C rating on my 7.4v is 15C, at 3000 mAh, thats 45 Amps of potential discharge contunious, with a 25C burst rating (up to 70amps when "stressed" like at start up)  Low quality LiPo's such as ones produced by airsoft manufacturers (correction, rebranded by airsoft manufacturers) often have Low C ratings and low mAh, which gives us a low amperage.  When a motor maxes out the battery pack, the pack discharges quicker causing decreased battery life and a slower ROF than if it were maxed out.  (More support that Torque is a product of Amperage and Voltage (Power))  If you run a mini 9.6v on a gun that draws a lot of juice, lets say a Systema Magnum equpied M14 with an SP150 spring, the mini will produce a significantly lower ROF than that of an 8.4v Large with a higher discharge rate because it can max the motor's "needed" amperage to operate at max torque.  A motor operating at max torque can get to it's max RPM's quicker and easier and maintain that RPM for a longer period of time.

For the record, a well tuned AEG or a stock TM will pull around 12-18 amps continuous in Full Auto.  In Semi auto, even some stock guns can pull up to 25 amps or more.

Don't think I meant to be condescending, cause I didn't....But what you are suggesting as far as the 7.4  vs higher voltage packs is just that, a 7.4 is going to have a lower C rating than a larger pack, because typically it is meant for a lighter application, the point is, The more shit you have, the more voltage and C rating you need..I think when I pick u p my new KWA I am going to see how much current the motor is pulling, and how much the battery is getting pulled..see also how much loss there is in the contacts.

[armalite attack]

I choose the G&G. Have one and I love it. I haven't tried out any other of your options so I can't give you feedback on them but the G&G is amazing. It has great rof with a 9.6 and is built great internally and externally. If you get the R4 Commando, there's actually trades on the receiver, unlike most G&Gs which I like.

[Whiskey11]

Pack size or voltage has nothing to do with C rating, the chemistry of the pack does.  Generally, NiMH's have a 10C rating, with obvious exceptions given to Elite AA and A sized cells (they tend to crush that generalization, as they output roughly 20-30 amps out of a 1200mAh-2000mAh pack which makes their C rating higher than 10C)

Right now, I could, If I had the money, purchase an Elite 5000mAh 7.4v LiPo with 35C.  THat battery pack can support up to 5 (thats 5000mAh converted to Ah) times 35C which gives us 175 Amps of potential discharge out of a 7.4v pack.  Granted, finding an AEG that needs 175 amps continuous would be crazy (compressing car shock springs?) but it illustrates that a lower voltage pack (7.4v in this case) can still have a high C rating and a high Discharge rate.

You can also get a 3.7v 5000mAh pack with 35C as well, still same discharge rate, but lower voltage.

Source: http://www.cheapbatterypacks.com/?menu= ... &sid=35844

What KWA recommends for a battery pack is an 11.1v LiPo with 10c and less than 1500 mAh.  Thats 15 amps, thats not impressive in the slightest.  Where KWA's start failing is when you start allowing the motor all the amps it needs to operate at 100% efficiency.  15 Amps is clearly not enough amperage to operate the motor at 100% efficiency, otherwise KWA guns would not fail with an 11.1v with a higher C rating than 10C and a higher mAh rating than 1500 mAh.

*** Results are based on tests conducted with 11.1v 1500mAh 15A LiPo batteries.  Direct from KWA's webpage.  The underlined is Amperage, that puts their pack at 10C.  A far cry from the Elite pack I posted earlier which had a C rating of 35C.  http://www.kwausa.com/products_m4a1.html

No worries about being condescending, Two semester ago I took a physics course devoted to electronics.  I understand how this stuff works.  I'm not sure where you thought I was off, as the bolded in the quote you took of me made no incorrect statements.  KWA does ask for low C low mAh LiPo's which have less discharge than a comparable 9.6v pack.

[busta_cap]

Pack size or voltage has nothing to do with C rating, the chemistry of the pack does.  Generally, NiMH's have a 10C rating, with obvious exceptions given to Elite AA and A sized cells (they tend to crush that generalization, as they output roughly 20-30 amps out of a 1200mAh-2000mAh pack which makes their C rating higher than 10C)

Right now, I could, If I had the money, purchase an Elite 5000mAh 7.4v LiPo with 35C.  THat battery pack can support up to 5 (thats 5000mAh converted to Ah) times 35C which gives us 175 Amps of potential discharge out of a 7.4v pack.  Granted, finding an AEG that needs 175 amps continuous would be crazy (compressing car shock springs?) but it illustrates that a lower voltage pack (7.4v in this case) can still have a high C rating and a high Discharge rate.

You can also get a 3.7v 5000mAh pack with 35C as well, still same discharge rate, but lower voltage.

Source: http://www.cheapbatterypacks.com/?menu= ... &sid=35844

What KWA recommends for a battery pack is an 11.1v LiPo with 10c and less than 1500 mAh.  Thats 15 amps, thats not impressive in the slightest.  Where KWA's start failing is when you start allowing the motor all the amps it needs to operate at 100% efficiency.  15 Amps is clearly not enough amperage to operate the motor at 100% efficiency, otherwise KWA guns would not fail with an 11.1v with a higher C rating than 10C and a higher mAh rating than 1500 mAh.

*** Results are based on tests conducted with 11.1v 1500mAh 15A LiPo batteries.  Direct from KWA's webpage.  The underlined is Amperage, that puts their pack at 10C.  A far cry from the Elite pack I posted earlier which had a C rating of 35C.  http://www.kwausa.com/products_m4a1.html

No worries about being condescending, Two semester ago I took a physics course devoted to electronics.  I understand how this stuff works.  I'm not sure where you thought I was off, as the bolded in the quote you took of me made no incorrect statements.  KWA does ask for low C low mAh LiPo's which have less discharge than a comparable 9.6v pack.

Not to thread jack, but The problem I am going to encounter is having the crane stock will limit the already configured lipoly batteries out there, Most likely I will buy my cells and make a lipoly pack. I did this for my helo's that were 7.2v, 35c 2000mah: 80mph

[Whiskey11]

True, not a bad idea.  There is a company that makes a "nunchuck" LiPo, I cant remember, but it was designed to fit under Rail units in the M4's... granted, it's probably a low C and low mAh pack though ><  Crane stocks will take Sub-C's right?  If so, you could hook up two 7.4v LiPo Batteries in Parallel, that would fit.  I have a 1200mAh 25C pack around here that is smaller than a mini 8.4v that might fit.  That would double the effective mAh of the "battery" you are using yet retaining the voltage and output.  I know a few people who have done this with success.

[XavierMace]

I've got a 11.1v 1300mah 15C Stock tube in my crane stock.  The problem is the cells are a little too square shaped to fit in the sides.

Not all crane stocks take Sub-C.  CA's do, G&P, Star, etc only take 2/3 A,

[Whiskey11]

I've got a 11.1v 1300mah 15C Stock tube in my crane stock.  The problem is the cells are a little too square shaped to fit in the sides.

Not all crane stocks take Sub-C.  CA's do, G&P, Star, etc only take 2/3 A,

Yeah just ran out and double checked, the G&P one def wont fit the LiPo I've got, the CA one might though with some dremel work.  It was a novel idea.