Author Topic: Couple of questions about high rof  (Read 1419 times)

Offline hdrox88

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Couple of questions about high rof
« on: February 07, 2011, 11:39:31 PM »
I am toying with the idea of diving into a high rof build. I am looking to hit the 40 rps mark without a DSG which shouldn't be too difficult. It is making it last that is the key. Anyway, I am looking into the Extreme-Fire mosfets and would like some feedback from actual users. Is it worth the extra $30 to go with a Cheetah over the AB-Long?

Also, I have read a few times that version 3 gearboxes are a little stronger than the version 2. Just looking at the two, I would have to agree, but I have not pushed either gearbox hard enough to get a catastrophic failure.

I am looking for first hand experience, so if you just want to say, "I think you should buy this(enter random part here) cause it looks cool," please don't. Thanks in advance for any help or insight.
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Offline axisofoil

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Re: Couple of questions about high rof
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2011, 11:20:36 AM »
Quote from: "hdrox88"
I am toying with the idea of diving into a high rof build. I am looking to hit the 40 rps mark without a DSG which shouldn't be too difficult. It is making it last that is the key. Anyway, I am looking into the Extreme-Fire mosfets and would like some feedback from actual users. Is it worth the extra $30 to go with a Cheetah over the AB-Long?

Also, I have read a few times that version 3 gearboxes are a little stronger than the version 2. Just looking at the two, I would have to agree, but I have not pushed either gearbox hard enough to get a catastrophic failure.

I am looking for first hand experience, so if you just want to say, "I think you should buy this(enter random part here) cause it looks cool," please don't. Thanks in advance for any help or insight.

The cheetah is worth it for your application, imo. It is designed to handle a larger continuous current, which you need to sustain high rof. It also has a lower resistance, which will give you quicker spin-up times.

If nothing else, it gives you the option of burst fire if you should ever want it... or of slowing your rof down (if you're outshooting your mags, you might want this feature until you get better mags... maybe. depends). I have a cheetah, and the sheer number of options is astounding. If you have room in whatever gun you choose, you might go with the larger (though largely equivalent) panther boards... and it looks like the Jaguar might be the same thing as the cheetah for less? I can't see a difference on the site, but I'm sure there is one.

Ver2 and Ver3 shouldn't be much different as far as high rof goes... lots of ultra high rof mp5's out there. I hear ver 7's hold up to high rof really well, however.
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Offline hdrox88

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Re: Couple of questions about high rof
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2011, 10:19:01 PM »
Thanks for the info, it is appreciated. I have another question now as well. As far as failures with the gears is concerned, is there a way to determine if a failed part was due to the part being weak vs the gears being shimmed improperly? I am sure there would be several factors in gear failure, just wondering if there is any "rule of thumb" so to speak.
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Offline axisofoil

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Re: Couple of questions about high rof
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2011, 10:26:39 PM »
Quote from: "hdrox88"
Thanks for the info, it is appreciated. I have another question now as well. As far as failures with the gears is concerned, is there a way to determine if a failed part was due to the part being weak vs the gears being shimmed improperly? I am sure there would be several factors in gear failure, just wondering if there is any "rule of thumb" so to speak.

There are ways to tell, but honestly I couldn't explain them over the internet.

But sometimes there isn't any exact way to tell... and it can definitely be a combination of the two problems.
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Offline Dilligaf

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Re: Couple of questions about high rof
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 10:29:00 AM »
your right the version 3 is supposed to be a little stronger however a put extreme emphasis on little a friend of mine blew out the front end of his ver 2 gearbox. Looking at the two fully disasembled there is not much difference where the major fail points are so..... you might be sol a little bit later in a version 3 than a version 2.
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Offline hdrox88

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Re: Couple of questions about high rof
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2011, 10:33:27 PM »
I am debating on which platform I want to tear into. I have both a G&G and a G&P M4, or an Echo 1 G36. How well do G36 mags feed vs M4 mags? People seem to have great success with M4 set-ups with high rof. I haven't come across any high speed G36 though, so that makes me kinda lean that way as it isn't seen too often. Would that be a bad idea?

I was really considering starting off with the G&P because in stock form it already rips out 30 rps with a 11.1v 25c lipo and they seem to be solid guns, but a the same time I don't want to mess with the integrity of what is already there.
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Offline axisofoil

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Re: Couple of questions about high rof
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2011, 11:02:10 PM »
I say m4.
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Offline XavierMace

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Re: Couple of questions about high rof
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2011, 11:08:22 PM »
Sometimes I forget how few true high ROF setups there seem to be in AZ so I didn't comment sooner.

Most people do high speed M4's because of part availability.  Box/Drum mags are far easier to find for the M4 than pretty much any other platform.  Same goes for replacement parts.  Plus, it's by far the most common gearbox out there, so there's simply more info on high speed M4 setups.  That said, you run into the same wall with pretty much any AEG.  The ability of the mag to feed fast enough to keep up.  I don't have any factual data to provide you on this, but I see no reason why an M4 mag would feed any faster than a similar G36/AK/Whatever mag.  A sector clip helps a bit, but you are still going to run into the wall sooner rather than later.  There's two ways around that rule.

1.  Custom modified box/drum mag.  You can find more specific info on ASM but basically you modify a basic electric box mag to run a higher voltage and thereby increase the speed in which the mag feeds.  However that's not without issue because if you box mag fails for any reason (and probably will, once again sooner rather than later) or if you are playing at a game that won't allow box mags on M4's then you are SOL.

2.  Use a P90.  There's multiple reasons for this.  First off, the real P90 has a relatively high ROF for it's a bit more appropriate as far as realism goes.  Secondly, the P90 mechbox is one of TM's newer designs and is simply a smoother running gearbox.  The third and most important issue however is feeding the gun.  The P90 has two distinct advantages in this regard.  First off, the highcaps are pre-round so you aren't constantly trying to wind the mag while firing.  Secondly, you have the advantage of physics.  Because the magazines are horizontal and pushing the BB's downwards rather than upwards, the P90 magazines are simply capable of feeding much faster (the standards more than the highcaps) than magazines on more conventional weapons.  

With that said, if you have both platforms and are going to be buying more parts anyways, then I see no reason to choose one of your guns over the other beyond personal preference.  I would however recommend not using the G&P simply because you'll want to have a nice reliable backup as even in best case scenarios, you are going to experience failures more frequently with a high ROF gun.

In regards to the parts failures....  By extra pistons in advance.  Be prepared to blow through a few in a hurry as you tweak the gun.  I've never adjusted the AOE on my guns which leads me to believe needing to do so is either baloney or only applies to buying cheap guns/parts.  This is especially prevalent on high ROF setups.  A part fails on a gun and people blame that part for the failure which may not actually be the case.
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Offline hdrox88

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Re: Couple of questions about high rof
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2011, 11:18:17 PM »
Quote from: "XavierMace"
I've never adjusted the AOE on my guns which leads me to believe needing to do so is either baloney or only applies to buying cheap guns/parts.  This is especially prevalent on high ROF setups.  A part fails on a gun and people blame that part for the failure which may not actually be the case.
I had a little trouble understanding that last part. It seemed like at first you were thinking/saying that adjusting the AOE is unimportant if you buy quality parts, but later made it sound as if it is needed. Maybe it is cause it is late, but would you please clarify that for me?
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Offline XavierMace

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Re: Couple of questions about high rof
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2011, 02:23:19 AM »
GFD.  I spent an hour and 15 minutes typing up a response that was probably entirely too long which caused the php session to time out and lose the post.

FAIL.

If you want the longer version, send me a PM and all bombard you with it but the general jist of what I was saying was just because a part fails doesn't mean that part was to blame.  Parts are not all equal.  There are metal bushing and then there are METAL bushings.  You want the latter.  Guns are going to last X number of rounds.  The higher quality your gun is, the bigger number X is.  However regardless of what number X is, by increasing your ROF, you are reaching X number of shots quicker.  It might have taken you a year to hit that number originally but since you doubled your ROF, now it's only going to take 6 months to reach that number.  The cheaper parts you use, the lower number X is likely to be.  You want steel gears and bushings, not Chinese pot metal.

As a general rule, the more expensive the part is, the tighter the tolerances are when it was manufactured.  Modifications like AOE and shaving piston teeth are trying to adjust for the crap tolerances of Chinese parts.  Would you rather get cheap parts and spend hours modifying them or just buy better parts and have them work fine to begin with?
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Offline hdrox88

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Re: Couple of questions about high rof
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2011, 08:34:40 AM »
LOL. That blows.

Thanks, it makes sense now. I was just reading the earlier post and it kept looking like a contradiction to me. If you have some spare time and want to "bombard" me with info I wouldn't complain. I'm always willing to learn something new.
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