Author Topic: (Read 9339 times)

Raith · « **on:** September 15, 2004, 03:17:00 PM »

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stoli - Posted - Sep 14 2004 10:41:20 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gixser13
 nor do I agree with the right to marry same sex...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

oh I gotta hear the reasoning behind that one...
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley Posted - Sep 14 2004 10:45:59 PM
 Stoli, I have to know your background. You say you can't vote so that means you must have been convicted of a Felony? So that also means you cannot legally own any firearms correct. And now you're going to defend same sex marriages? OK guys if I step over the line on this one then I accept the bashing.

Stoli, you must have enjoyed jail too much.

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stoli Posted - Sep 14 2004 10:50:12 PM
 Harley, for someone that fought for peoples rights you sure like to restrict them. I'd honestly like to know what is wrong with same sex marriages. They hurt no one. Are you seriously saying youve been personally affected by a same sex marriage? That just cant be true...

& yes, youve stepped over the line with me personally. If you really want a problem with me, by all means keep saying things like that...
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley Posted - Sep 14 2004 11:07:32 PM
 To answer your question, I do have issues with same sex marriages. For one thing they are immoral just the same as homosexuality is. But then to know this one must believe in God and the 10 commandments. So I guess you don't on either Stoli?

I wasn't asking YOU if I stepped over the line. I was referring to the others on this forum that know me PERSONALLY, and you're not one of them.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stoli Posted - Sep 14 2004 11:58:18 PM
 Harley, I'm done trying to talk to you. I'd love to tear your reasoning to shreds, but I'd rather not say things to get me banned from the forums. Keep it civil, as will I. If you cant, then thats on you...
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shoule02 Posted - Sep 15 2004 12:04:36 AM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 To answer your question, I do have issues with same sex marriages. For one thing they are immoral just the same as homosexuality is. But then to know this one must believe in God and the 10 commandments.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

as per the first ammendment...

The founders never intended for God and government to mix. You have your idea of morality, they have theirs. To each his own.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley Posted - Sep 15 2004 12:23:44 AM
 True, and they can all live happily ever after in Kalifornia. That's what they want anyway, so more power to them.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shoule02 Posted - Sep 15 2004 12:39:44 AM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 True, and they can all live happily ever after in Kalifornia. That's what they want anyway, so more power to them.
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I agree. Marriage is traditionally governed by the states anyways (via the 10th ammendment). I wish the President could understand that.

We also must rememeber that forcing morality on free citizens has never worked. Remember what happened to prohibition? True morality, however you define it, is something to be encouraged, not mandated.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gixser13 Posted - Sep 15 2004 12:49:03 AM
 I have a bible in one hand and a Barrett 50 cal in the other!

anymore questions,

This country was founded on freedom of speech, the right to bear arms and the bible
the bible has been taken out of schools and public places, We are fighting for our right to bear arms,
So freedom of speech is next guys

As far as gay marriages I never said I dislike gays people!
I try to live my life according to the bible as did our fore father
if you knew the bible then you would not question it.....

I am just sick and tierd of Us Americans Bending and giving up our fredoms because it offends some Muslim or none english speaking leach...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shoule02 Posted - Sep 15 2004 01:07:00 AM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gixser13
 This country was founded on freedom of speech, the right to bear arms and the bible
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The laws of the U.S. are based upon the Constitution and its ammendments. The 1st ammendment explicitly prohibits the goverment from making any laws regarding an establishment of religion. So then how is the U.S. founded on the bible?

The same ammendment that gives you your freedom of speech also gives me my freedom from having the bible forced upon me in school.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TheCrow Posted - Sep 15 2004 04:13:58 AM
 Same sex marriage and homosexuality violates the natural order of life. I don't think anything else needs to be said on that subject.

As for guns, nobody has the right to tell me what I can and cannot have. If I do not break the law with a gun, I should have the right to own it. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

I still love the idea of listing who is and is not a gun ownwer/gun rights supporter in the phone books. The anti-gunners would hate to be labeled as "defenseless" in such a public manner.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delta_echo Posted - Sep 15 2004 05:45:37 AM
 The issue of same-sex marriage is not an issues of rights, its an issue of special privledges granted by the government. In this case, homosexuals want special privledges normally afforded only to married couples. Bush isn't trying to make a law outlawing homosexuality, he's just making a admendment to halt any other type of "union" from counting towards those privledges. What homosexuals do in private is no matter of the government, but what they decide to do in the general public is. The fact is, if gay "marriage" is legitimized, you can start making arguments for the need for a union of "man and beast", a "threesome", etc.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shoule02 Posted - Sep 15 2004 12:10:44 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delta_echo
 I like to see both sides of the issue so I myself can decide if my current idea is logically sound or if I need to start thinking on it a bit more[

].
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So how about this comaprison?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delta_echo
 The fact is, if gay "marriage" is legitimized, you can start making arguments for the need for a union of "man and beast", a "threesome", etc.
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That sounds very familiar. Slippery slope? Let me rephrase it then...

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The fact is, if assault weapons are legitimized, you can start making arguments for the need for fully automatic rifles, and rocket propelled grenades, and etc.
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The anti-gun crowd has made that same argument about the 2nd ammendment. "Where do we draw the line?" With respect to gay "marriage" the idea that it leads to a slippery slope of "immorality" and other such non-traditional unions is just as false as saying that allowing assault weapons leads to a slippery slope of allowing any average Joe to purchase any weapon he chooses.

More specifically, a union between a man and "beast" is silly at best. The "beast" in question has no legal name, SSN, birth certificate, or anything to distinguish it as being protected under the constitution.

A "threesome", or polygamy, is actually a very heterosexual idea (one man, many women) proposed mostly by the Fundamental LDS church (a perversion of the bible). They also share many of the same views as the far right ULTRA-conservatives that vehemently oppose homosexuality.

Simply put, the issue of gay "marriage", or "union", is about the benefits that legally married couples receive simply becuase they are heterosexual and NOT homosexual. In comparsion, the only difference between a family unit based upon heterosexuality and that of homosexuality, is that the adult partners are not of the opposite sex. In all other respects they can be considered equal. So why should one be denied rights that the other is guaranteed.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TheCrow
 Same sex marriage and homosexuality violates the natural order of life. I don't think anything else needs to be said on that subject.
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Homosexuality is not an uncommon occurance in nature. One case in point that I have experience with is male lovebirds (irony?). Lovebirds pick a mate and stay with them for life (something even heterosexual humans have trouble with). It is not uncommmon at all for a male lovebird to choose a male life partner. While this homosexual "union" of two male lovebirds will not ensure the survival of the species, it is ensured by the fact that not every male lovebird will choose a male partner and most (or some) will choose a female.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shoule02 Posted - Sep 15 2004 12:24:00 PM
 Some interesting reading..

LA Times article (in pdf form):

http://www.applegoddess.org/files/eBooks/BirdsAndBonobos.pdf

An interesting looking book (referenced in above article):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/031225377X/102-5407042-1245709?v=glance
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley Posted - Sep 15 2004 12:39:08 PM
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Homosexuality is not an uncommon occurance in nature. One case in point that I have experience with is male lovebirds (irony?). Lovebirds pick a mate and stay with them for life (something even heterosexual humans have trouble with). It is not uncommmon at all for a male lovebird to choose a male life partner. While this homosexual "union" of two male lovebirds will not ensure the survival of the species, it is ensured by the fact that not every male lovebird will choose a male partner and most (or some) will choose a female.
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This is true, I use to laugh when one of my ex-wife's cats use to try to get it on with his brother. It really didn't mean he was a "fag" just that he was horny and his brother was the closest thing in the vicinity. Same thing as jail house sex. I'm sure the majority of inmates would rather be getting it on with the opposite sex, but since they can't the go for the next best thing.

It is different though when it's a choice in lifestyle instead of a situation. Not that either is acceptble to me, but there is a distinct difference.

True, it's been going on well before recorded history. Does that make it right? Prostitution has been going on for almost as long and yet it's only legal in Nevada and nowhere else in the US. Does that make it morally right?
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shoule02 Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:03:56 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 True, it's been going on well before recorded history. Does that make it right? Prostitution has been going on for almost as long and yet it's only legal in Nevada and nowhere else in the US. Does that make it morally right?
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Very good point! But why is prostitution illegal? Because it is immoral? Partly. It is also illegal because of the environment it creates. Protitution leads to other crimes like the sex slave trade, drugs, and even gangs. Organized crime also is heavily involved in prostitution. If it was just a simple situation as in a man (or woman) paying for sexual stimulation and nothing else it might be viewed differently by the law (an ideal "victimless" crime). Unfortunately for those whose lives revolve around prostitution, it is not so simple or harmless at all. However you look at it though it is immoral.

For a homosexual couple (like the penguins in the article I linked to) the relationship is about love for one another, not about who has the money and who doesn't. How is that immoral?
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stoli Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:09:19 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I never called you a "fag", but I think I did hit a nerve there. The fact is that I don't know jack about you except from what you've disclosed to us. So it's up to you as to what opinion we form about you based on what you tell us.

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Then take your own advice, & "shut the hell up about things you know nothing about"...

Harley - It is different though when it's a choice in lifestyle instead of a situation. Not that either is acceptble to me, but there is a distinct difference.

being in a situation where you cant find a woman, is not an excuse for ****ing a guy in the ass. If you cant go without sex from a woman, & just have to bend over your cellmate, then youre a weak person....
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:14:55 PM
 If that was the case then why is it legal in only Nevada and why doesn't Nevada have problems with the very things you stated? In fact the women must pass a state health exam on a regular basis in order to keep working. So why doesn't the rest of the US fall in line and just OK it and start making money off it? Maybe it's because the majority of the US population feel it's immoral?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leadmagnet Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:19:22 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 To answer your question, I do have issues with same sex marriages. For one thing they are immoral just the same as homosexuality is. But then to know this one must believe in God and the 10 commandments. So I guess you don't on either Stoli?

I wasn't asking YOU if I stepped over the line. I was referring to the others on this forum that know me PERSONALLY, and you're not one of them.
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Harley, I don't believe in God, and I don't believe your ten commandments are much more than common sense rules with which to live peaceably with your neighbors.

Now, other than by using fairy tales, please explain to us why same sex marriage is so evil.

Lead
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:25:06 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leadmagnet
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 To answer your question, I do have issues with same sex marriages. For one thing they are immoral just the same as homosexuality is. But then to know this one must believe in God and the 10 commandments. So I guess you don't on either Stoli?

I wasn't asking YOU if I stepped over the line. I was referring to the others on this forum that know me PERSONALLY, and you're not one of them.
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Harley, I don't believe in God, and I don't believe your ten commandments are much more than common sense rules with which to live peaceably with your neighbors.

Now, other than by using fairy tales, please explain to us why same sex marriage is so evil.

Lead
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How can I explain something to you when you have no moral beliefs? Isn't that what you're telling me Lead? I mean if you don't believe that we should live by the 10 commandments, but rather their just guide lines which can be bent and flexed to suit our personal views, then I can't give you any other answer than what I have.

Oh, homosexualty has touched my life in a personal way just to clearify things. My older brother was gay and he died of aids 15 years ago. So I take the gay, homo, fag thing personally when I see what it does to those we love. Yes it was his choice to live his lifestyle but I'll never agree with it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:28:14 PM
 does that make it morrally wrong? and whose morals? morals are not an absolute, they are based on society. if a majority of society thinks that something is not immoral, what right does a minority have to tell them it is? and does someone who feels something is morally wrong have the right to force those morals on another when no one is being hurt?

and no, i dont believe in the 10 commandments. im christian, not jewish.

btw, yes, you can own a military jet, but minus a LOT of the elcetronics systems, all the weaponry, and a good part of the thrust system thats still classified. so it wont run as well, as fast, or as accurately, and you cant blow big holes in anything.

going back into the hornets nest that is the gay debate...

no, actually, its part of the natural order. its been pretty well shown that overcrowding of a population causes switches during raising that cause a small percent of the population to be "sexually abnormal". that covers asexuality and homosexuality both. it have been shown clinnically in mammals, fish, birds, and mollusks. which is why you find it mostly in large populations. it doesnt occur near as much in small towns, becuase the cues arent there.

now, what pisses me off are bisexuals of both sexs. like i need the extra competition, lol

as for the sanctity of marriage, people act like its a christian creation. it predates christ, it predates moses. its gone through a lot of changes. marriage HAS NO SANCTITY. sorry. hate to burst the bubble.

btw, sniping wolf, i can state with certainty that those arguements stay out of game. i got into a big fight on a few threads with people a few days before dragonshead. they knew who i was, i knew who they were, it didnt come up at game. period. AA keeps it professional. keep it that way. calm down.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leadmagnet Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:29:01 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shoule02
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 True, it's been going on well before recorded history. Does that make it right? Prostitution has been going on for almost as long and yet it's only legal in Nevada and nowhere else in the US. Does that make it morally right?
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Very good point! But why is prostitution illegal? Because it is immoral? Partly. It is also illegal because of the environment it creates. Protitution leads to other crimes like the sex slave trade, drugs, and even gangs. Organized crime also is heavily involved in prostitution. If it was just a simple situation as in a man (or woman) paying for sexual stimulation and nothing else it might be viewed differently by the law (an ideal "victimless" crime). Unfortunately for those whose lives revolve around prostitution, it is not so simple or harmless at all. However you look at it though it is immoral.

For a homosexual couple (like the penguins in the article I linked to) the relationship is about love for one another, not about who has the money and who doesn't. How is that immoral?
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Actually, the environment you justly despise is the result of the prohibition of these acts (prostitution, use of certain drugs, gambling, etc.) rather than the acts themselves.

For example, if you were really serious about keeping drugs out of the hands of children, you wouldn't turn over their distribution to criminal predators that care little if at all about the age or mental status of their customers.

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:31:31 PM
 harley, so, if i dont believe in YOUR god, and YOUR rules from said god, then i have no morals? your morals are the only ones that count? just making sure that that is what you are saying.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shoule02 Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:33:08 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 Oh, homosexualty has touched my life in a personal way just to clearify things. My older brother was gay and he died of aids 15 years ago. So I take the gay, homo, fag thing personally when I see what it does to those we love. Yes it was his choice to live his lifestyle but I'll never agree with it.
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Harley, unprotected sex is what gave him AIDS. Not being gay. There are millions of people worldwide who have had to suffer the same thing. Not because they are gay, but becasue they chose to have "un-safe" sex. The promiscuous heterosexual is just as wrong as the promiscuous homosexual.

On a side note, you have my sincere condolences Harley.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:38:01 PM
 What God do yo believe in LP? Unless you're budist or something else don't we all believe in the same God? Muslem, Christian, Jew, don't they all pray to the same God?

You tell me, what's moral and what isn't. Don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't lie, don't screw goats, isn't all just common sense stuff as well?
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:38:36 PM
 that said, the uncle of my best friend died of aids in 95. he was bi. got it from a woman.

and sorry to hear that harley.

and sheole, when he says had to deal with, hes not talking about aids or stating his brother got it becuase hes gay. hes talking about the hate mongering.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leadmagnet Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:39:41 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leadmagnet
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 To answer your question, I do have issues with same sex marriages. For one thing they are immoral just the same as homosexuality is. But then to know this one must believe in God and the 10 commandments. So I guess you don't on either Stoli?

I wasn't asking YOU if I stepped over the line. I was referring to the others on this forum that know me PERSONALLY, and you're not one of them.
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Harley, I don't believe in God, and I don't believe your ten commandments are much more than common sense rules with which to live peaceably with your neighbors.

Now, other than by using fairy tales, please explain to us why same sex marriage is so evil.

Lead
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How can I explain something to you when you have no moral beliefs? Isn't that what you're telling me Lead? I mean if you don't believe that we should live by the 10 commandments, but rather their just guide lines which can be bent and flexed to suit our personal views, then I can't give you any other answer than what I have.

Oh, homosexualty has touched my life in a personal way just to clearify things. My older brother was gay and he died of aids 15 years ago. So I take the gay, homo, fag thing personally when I see what it does to those we love. Yes it was his choice to live his lifestyle but I'll never agree with it.

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I didn't say that we shouldn't live by rules that allow us to live together more peacefully. I'm asking you to tell me why same sex relations are so evil with out using the fairy tales.

Your brother contracted a disease that has killed many a good person. I'm sincerely sorry for your loss. Are you telling us that because he died in such away you feel valid in persecuting individuals due to their sexual preference? Did you want your brother to live a life pretending he was somebody he wasn't?
And how different are you from the gun grabbers who want to take away our firearms because people occasionally and accidentally "contract" bullets from them resulting in a loss of life?

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TheCrow Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:55:01 PM
 You guys have missed the point I tried to make when I posted this morning. I said gays/homosexuality violates the natural order of life, and all you give me is examples of animals and lower beasts: we are not animals, we are human and the dominant, thinking species. We are better than that.

All of you that have a problem with John (Harley) should sit down and get to know him. He is a very caring and compassionate guy. He is strong in his opionions, but he has certainly earned the right to be that way. He does not bash you for simply disagreeing with him (we have been split on many subjects) regardless of what has been said on these forums. A debate over the internet does not fully convey the emotions and the true spirit of what someone is trying to say. In other words, things get mixed up sometimes. Everyone's opinion matters here, but it may not be the popular one. Just learn to live with that fact.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Victor3 Posted - Sep 15 2004 1:55:38 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">as for the sanctity of marriage, people act like its a christian creation. it predates christ, it predates moses. its gone through a lot of changes. marriage HAS NO SANCTITY. sorry. hate to burst the bubble.
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Sorry...hate to burst your bubble, but marriage IS a religious ceremony. Of course not a Christian one since it pre-dates Christ, but he wasn't a Christian either. If the Homo-sexuals want legal unions fine, but don't call it marriage, thats reserved for use between one man and one woman.

Before you guys go around screaming "I'm being oppressed on the AA boards" remember Harley is also allowed HIS opinon and because he disagrees with you doesn't mean you're right and he's wrong and you are being oppressed. And just as a point of information....this is not a public forum it belongs to Paco and he allows us to use it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leadmagnet Posted - Sep 15 2004 2:02:02 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TheCrow
 You guys have missed the point I tried to make when I posted this morning. I said gays/homosexuality violates the natural order of life, and all you give me is examples of animals and lower beasts: we are not animals, we are human and the dominant, thinking species. We are better than that.
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What the hell is this "natural order of life" crap? Lol. Really, give us a break with that crap.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Victor3 Sorry...hate to burst your bubble, but marriage IS a religious ceremony. Of course not a Christian one since it pre-dates Christ, but he wasn't a Christian either. If the Homo-sexuals want legal unions fine, but don't call it marriage, thats reserved for use between one man and one woman.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tell us again why only marriages between men and women should be sanctioned by law? And please, try to do so without all the fairy tales.

Lead<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TheCrow Posted - Sep 15 2004 2:07:23 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leadmagnet
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TheCrow
 You guys have missed the point I tried to make when I posted this morning. I said gays/homosexuality violates the natural order of life, and all you give me is examples of animals and lower beasts: we are not animals, we are human and the dominant, thinking species. We are better than that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What the hell is this "natural order of life" crap? Lol. Really, give us a break with that crap.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Victor3 Sorry...hate to burst your bubble, but marriage IS a religious ceremony. Of course not a Christian one since it pre-dates Christ, but he wasn't a Christian either. If the Homo-sexuals want legal unions fine, but don't call it marriage, thats reserved for use between one man and one woman.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tell us again why only marriages between men and women should be sanctioned by law? And please, try to do so without all the fairy tales.

Lead
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I nature, opposites attract. There is a male and female of every sexual species for a reason: procreation. Anything that deviates from that is in violation. And for my term being "crap", who is attacking who here now, Lead? I have been totally respectful of you so far, do not change that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley Posted - Sep 15 2004 2:13:57 PM
 Hey Lead, next time we hook up you're buying the beers!

OK, it's true that many a hetrosexual has contracted and died of aids. Blood transfusions were a big issue back in the '80's until they realized what was happening and screened the donars blood. That aside, how many hertro's would you sumize have contracted aids from a partner that had a former partner that had a former partner that was bi-sexual and contracted it from one of their gay partners? Better yet, how many did from a partner that never had a homosexual relationship? Rule out blood transfusions and getting contaiminated blood on you and I bet it's a big zero. As I recall the Aids virus was discovered to have come to the US through Haiti, correct me if I'm wrong. Until the '80's we had no problems with the disease that I know of. So that means we can rule out hetrosexually transmitting the disease between two partners that have not had a homosexual relationship can't we?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sNiPeRWoLf88 Posted - Sep 15 2004 2:14:22 PM
 then why am I not dating a prep girl who is dumb as hell and anti-religious?[?] (no puzzled smily, so this is all i could find)

And Harley, why don't we just trace it back to 2 gay monkeys from which AIDS came from (AIDS came from monkeys in Africa)?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley Posted - Sep 15 2004 2:16:25 PM
 You tell us?
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen Posted - Sep 15 2004 2:18:47 PM
 actually, the earliest recorded ceremonies that are stated as marriage are egyptian, and ... wow. gay marriage was common.

harley, I BELIEVE in god, roughly the judeo-chritian muslem god. theres some differences in opinion as to what god wants, ect, but generally the same. i dont WORSHIP god. i dont worship jesus either, simply becuase i can imagine him standing in heaven, looking down, thinking, please dont, thats embarrasing. but i try to live my live by his teachings.

what i count as moral, the absolute morality, is that anything that does not harm another is moral. harming another, physically or mentally, is immorral, and pushing your morals on another qualifies.

and... yes, humans are an animal. i believe that. i dont buy genesis, a book written by a guy trying to get a cult together, claiming it was the word of god. sorry, not buying it. if it WAS written by divine word, it was said the way it was becuase that was the best way they could understand it.

and on the gay marriage. marriage is not governed by law. the term is not. the rights that go along with it are civil union rights. guess what, gay couples get married ALL THE TIME. in churches, not in churches. exchange vows, call themselves married. and they are, they just dont get teh rights that go along with.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sNiPeRWoLf88 Posted - Sep 15 2004 2:20:55 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 You tell us?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

because opposites don't always attract in nature (unless they are magnets i suppose...).
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TheCrow Posted - Sep 15 2004 2:23:24 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sNiPeRWoLf88
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 You tell us?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

because opposites don't always attract in nature (unless they are magnets i suppose...).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, they do. Right down to the atomic level.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen Posted - Sep 15 2004 2:26:00 PM
 as for the origins of aids, the haiti link has been pretty much disproven. theres two main loci being looked at. one is in africa, and one is where most of the early us infections were linked too, which is a prison in .. somewhere back east (us) i believe. they linked it originally to a pair of haitin immigrants in said prison, which is where the haiti link started, but another similarity between the two sites? the testing of polio vaccines made using monkey livers. quite likely where siv made the jump. and yeah, it was spread through heterosexual sex also. it just so happens that anal sex, (if you are easily offende by somewhat graphic words, stop reading) tends to open up more micro abrasions in the skin, due to lack of natural lubrication and other reasons, and that makes it easier to pass on the virus. the majority of women who get it have been found to have gotten it through anal sex as well.

wow...

has this thread diverted or what?

so, .50 cal. makes big hole. some say bad, some say fun.

arguement over.

lol.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen Posted - Sep 15 2004 2:41:12 PM
 look, ill say this one last bit. i dont like the thought of two guys going at it. it seems wrong to me. i dont like the idea of HETEROSEXUAL anal sex. seems dirty. but... i dont think i have the right to push my feelings on others.

so, has anyone here actually fired a .50 rifle?
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leadmagnet Posted - Sep 15 2004 3:03:54 PM
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TheCrow

nature, opposites attract. There is a male and female of every sexual species for a reason: procreation. Anything that deviates from that is in violation. And for my term being "crap", who is attacking who here now, Lead? I have been totally respectful of you so far, do not change that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Regarding the "crap" bit, don't take my tone too seriously. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings and I apologize if I did.

So, your "natural order of things" boils down to polarity and making babies? (cough, cough) Good grief, man. You need to get yourself layed.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
 Hey Lead, next time we hook up you're buying the beers!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Heck, bro, you know I'm always good for a couple dozen.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by leakingpen
so, has anyone here actually fired a .50 rifle?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I haven't. But I sure would like to. And at a target a mile away!

Lead<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

HavHav · « **Reply #1 on:** September 15, 2004, 03:21:07 PM »

If I can add my $.02, I say that if we all just stick to masturbation, nobody can really have a problem now can they? Not like you can get an STD from that, or get someone pregnant.

gixser13 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 15, 2004, 03:33:20 PM »

you`ll go blind and grow hair on your palms

Pheonix 797 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 15, 2004, 05:12:19 PM »

Didn't you listen to the nuns back in the day?!

delta_echo · « **Reply #4 on:** September 15, 2004, 07:50:22 PM »

Is it necessary to make it dirty now? Just remember that there are twelve year olds logging on to this site, and I don't think their parents would appreciate your form of sex ed.

yellowmonkey · « **Reply #5 on:** September 15, 2004, 09:40:54 PM »

Criminies people, how do you all get so much posted so fast? I'll browse this thread and respond to things I think need to be responded to. It's already too long to respond to all of it. I really hate to bring up questions that have already been answered or discussed by other people, but from what I can see... most of those answers look kind of vague or wrong in some cases.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Harley
What God do yo believe in LP? Unless you're budist or something else don't we all believe in the same God? Muslem, Christian, Jew, don't they all pray to the same God?

You tell me, what's moral and what isn't. Don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't lie, don't screw goats, isn't all just common sense stuff as well?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have to comment on this one Harley. I'm also sorry to hear of your loss. I want to let you all know how serious I am about the idea of homosexuallity and what is right and wrong.
First I want to say that it is wrong to hate people for the things they do; as wrong as those things might be, I think Christians should try to be supportive to those people and help them find a better way.

Christianity holds that the God of the Bible and the god(s) of Muslims, Bhuddists, Hindus, etc... are all different. Each religion has a specific teaching. Each religion has (a) specific god(s). For example: two of the mostly closely related gods are probably the Christian and Hebrew gods. Most people like to think of them interchangably, but they are not the same.
The Hebrew god is actually an incomplete version of God. Christianity holds that God has 3 parts (the trinity) and the Hebrew god is missing 1 part of that trinity (the Son). The God of Christians has different values and laws than the Hebrew god, eg.: the god of the Hebrews demands an animal sacrifice to attone for sins, the Christian God holds that people no longer need animal sacrifices to attone for sins because they have the sacrifice of the Son of God.

Inerestingly enough, the idea of prayer came to my mind when I thought of the idea of God. I would hold that even though a Muslim says daily prayers to god, those prayers are not accepted by the true Christian God because they do not go through the Son (Jesus) (I'm still looking for the reference to that).

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Originally posted by leakingpen
actually, the earliest recorded ceremonies that are stated as marriage are egyptian, and ... wow. gay marriage was common.
harley, I BELIEVE in god, roughly the judeo-chritian muslem god. theres some differences in opinion as to what god wants, ect, but generally the same. i dont WORSHIP god. i dont worship jesus either, simply becuase i can imagine him standing in heaven, looking down, thinking, please dont, thats embarrasing. but i try to live my live by his teachings.

what i count as moral, the absolute morality, is that anything that does not harm another is moral. harming another, physically or mentally, is immorral, and pushing your morals on another qualifies.

and... yes, humans are an animal. i believe that. i dont buy genesis, a book written by a guy trying to get a cult together, claiming it was the word of god. sorry, not buying it. if it WAS written by divine word, it was said the way it was becuase that was the best way they could understand it.

and on the gay marriage. marriage is not governed by law. the term is not. the rights that go along with it are civil union rights. guess what, gay couples get married ALL THE TIME. in churches, not in churches. exchange vows, call themselves married. and they are, they just dont get teh rights that go along with.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually Leakingpen, these sources show that Mesopotamian Marriages were the first documented marriages.

http://www.ehistory.com/world/articles/ ... cfm?AID=58
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/ ... rri02.html
http://www.law.pitt.edu/hibbitts/meso.htm

We must also not forget the many times the Bible mentions the words wife or husband in Genesis; this implies that whatever rituals there were, they still predated the Egyptian and Mesopotamian marriages themselves. Marriage itself originates from the Jewish tradition of a MAN and a WOMAN (not same sex) joining in union under God. It is unlikely that any traditions for marriage existed (because traditions are things that are invented by someone and passed down from generation to generation) at the time of Adam and Eve (the first married couple (Genesis 2:24 confirms this)) becasue they were the first people. Infact, the earliest marriage was actually sanctioned and preformed by God. It was not called a marriage, it was called a union, and that was preformed when God made Eve from Adam's rib.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Originally posted by leadmagnet

So, your "natural order of things" boils down to polarity and making babies? (cough, cough) Good grief, man. You need to get yourself layed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think that you could safely say that "making babies" is a more meaningful PURPOSE of sex than the pleasure is. Pleasure is a tool to initiate the reproductive cycle. The Bible defines it as a "gift". I would agree, as humans could have simply been made to reproduce like sand crabs, with no pleasure in the act at all. I think we could also say that the Purpose of sex is more of a driving force in the animal kingdom than the pleasure of it is, since most animals do not experience pleasure.

What I see a lot on these boards and from the rest of society, are some ideas that directly contradict the Christian faith... yet most of these poeple are content to call themselves practicing Christians.

The first thing I see is the idea that everybody goes to heaven, unless you're really, really bad. I have to say NO to that one.
I'm sorry to whip all of you up into a frenzy and be the guy on the street corner witht the sign that says "Do you know Jesus?", but not everyone goes to heaven, not the nicest LDS guy or the most compassionate Quaker.

The Bible says that God will hold you accountable for what you know about Him. So if you have accepted Christ as Lord, but seperate yourself from God by performing unrighteuos actions, and you don't make that right with before you die (if you don't at least submit yourslef to God's authority), I can probably say, that you're not going to Heaven.

Conversely, if you are an African Pigmy that lives in the middle of nowhere and no one ever tells you about God... it is still possible for you to go to heaven. God makes Himslef known through His creation, even a Pigmy can see that a tree has design and derive from that design that there is a God.

Let me make it clear to you that I am NOT the judge. God is the judge. From what I understand of my Christian faith there are three basic steps to being saved (REGARDLESS of knowledge).
1. Accept God. Whether you know about Jesus or not, you must accpet the fact that there is God.
2. Submit to God. Follow his written and unwritten laws of moral judgement.
3. Maintain your relationship with God. You can become seperated from God. Jesus was seperated from God at one time becasue of the burden of the sins of man, and he temporarily visited hell. You can find that story in the gospels.

Second, I see that people like to make up their own versions of absolute right and wrong, or just take bits and peices of the Bible and say that the rest is doesn't matter. NO!
There is 1 standard of right and wrong! It is the Word of God.
I would like to point out what leakingpen said becasue so many people have the same idea:
"what i count as moral, the absolute morality, is that anything that does not harm another is moral. harming another, physically or mentally, is immorral, and pushing your morals on another qualifies."

The contradiction that disproves pen's idea of multiple absolute moralities is right in the text. If Pen's morality can not interfere (harm) another morality, and my morality is different than his and says that his is wrong... how can Pen's morality be absolute and not interfere with mine (which says his is wrong)? Pen's morality must interfere with mine, lest it be unabsolute (which is logically impossible since it would still conflict with other moralities).
Pen's morality is, therefore, disproven... which leaves the following possible correct absolute moralities: my morality, or another morality which is absolute and holds that there is only 1 absolute morality.
I have logically proven that there must be 1 absolute morality.

So if you do choose to take the Bible as a standard of absolute morality, you have to also take ALL or NOTHING. Muslims will argue that only parts of the Gospels and the New Testament are true. They like to say that Jesus did exist as the son of man, but not as the son of God. A few things are wrong with doing this.
If some of the words in the Bible are not the truth, then either the author is a false prophet and then the rest of the words are compromised or the words that are supposedly false were added in to the original words.
The first idea of the authors being false prophets is ludicris, because the words of the authors in the Bible correspond with all other parts of the Bible, there are no actual contradictions in the Bible (and yes I have seen a lot of supposed contradictions, they are all pretty much easily dismissed).
The second idea is also ludicris because we have found no evidence of the Bible (the New Testament) that excludes parts that a Muslim will claim to be false.

The Bible MUST be taken as a whole. What was written was written and is undeniable.

If you have any questions about Biblical referrences or anything, just ask.

Thanks for reading.

sNiPeRWoLf88 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 15, 2004, 09:57:20 PM »

Now if the Bible must be taken as a whole, does that mean that if you find one part to be true, you must find it all to be true? I am a church going Christian (hence my name, Christian), and I believe in most of the things written in The Bible. But, for example, I do not believe in Noah's Arc, nor the story of Cain going to a new land (Land of Nod) after killing his brother (Abel). You spoke about hearing and seeing a lot of condradictions, monkey, but I feel this one can't be as easily dismissed if you either take all or none as true.
You see, Cain and Able were the children of Adam and Eve. And they (Adam and Eve) were the first 2 humans, according to the Bible. But heres a twist. How does the Land of Nod exist (with a human population) if Adam and Eve were the first two humans? Theres your condradiction, but supported with biblical references.

(this is my kind of debating, where the stabes are not made at people, hehheh).

IcePlatinumSky · « **Reply #7 on:** September 15, 2004, 10:05:14 PM »

You my friend are the man!!! However, I think you forgot to mention that salvation is achived through knowing Jesus, and your personal daily walk with him, and most important accept him as your savior. As Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Light".

IcePlatinumSky · « **Reply #8 on:** September 15, 2004, 10:24:53 PM »

I will take this one monkey boy!!!! Yes in verses 4:14-17 in Genesis Cain was worried about being killed by others, and married a wife.. The answer to your question was that in 1:28 they Adam and Eve had been told to fill the earth, and they had numerous children. Cains wife could have been one of his sisters or a nice. The human race was Genetically pure then so there was no fear of side effects from marrying relatives.

Hey monkey boy what church do you go to?

RickEJ6 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 15, 2004, 11:23:10 PM »

Also, sniperwolf, I have always been taught from EVERY teacher/preacher whatever that you MUST take the Bible as a whole. You cannont pick and choose what you believe. It is either the Holy inspired Word of God or nothing at all, no compromises.

gixser13 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 15, 2004, 11:40:55 PM »

question? I know that there are homosexuals that do goto church and believe in god. My guestion is I have heard that there is a passage in the bible that they justifly themselves with or that they read from

I do not mean this as blasphemy ,It only a question

RickEJ6 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 16, 2004, 01:15:05 AM »

Homosexuality is a sin, and in God's eyes it is just like any other sin that we commit. It, just as any other single sin, condemns us to eternity in hell unless we put our faith in Jesus Christ. The ONLY thing that is required is to beleive that Jesus is the only way to heaven. One can do that and still sin (we ALL do), but if you arent going about your best to change the way that you are, you have to consider how true your faith is. I know I sin on a regular basis, but do I do my best to change it (Being that the whole purpose that we are on Earth is to glorify God). I WILL fail, but I owe everything to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and therefore I will give my all to serving Him and glorifying His name. I dont know of the passage that you are speaking of, but I will look into it.

Ninja · « **Reply #12 on:** September 16, 2004, 01:37:26 AM »

I think the family is the basic unit of society, and historically cultures that eventually accepted homosexuality or similar variations of sexuality (late Greece, late Rome, etc.) tended to suffer a cultural breakdown.

Not to mention that there isn't biological evidence for homosexuality in humans as a normal trait. Like Vell has said, the only examples thus far have been in far lower animals.

Harley · « **Reply #13 on:** September 16, 2004, 07:44:40 AM »

Some how you some of you got the idea that I HATE anyone that is homosexual? I never said that. What I've said is that I don't agree with the lifestyle and think it's immoral. Hell I know plenty of gay men and women and my old girlfriend use to take me to parties that some of her gay male friends use to throw. Those by the way were some of the best parties I've ever been to. This is typical, someone says one thing and it gets twisted and comes out exagerated.

Harley · « **Reply #14 on:** September 16, 2004, 07:47:15 AM »

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gixser13
 question? I know that there are homosexuals that do goto church and believe in god. My guestion is I have heard that there is a passage in the bible that they justifly themselves with or that they read from

I do not mean this as blasphemy ,It only a question

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's just like anything Dave, someone interpretation of a law or passage to suit their needs. I can't remember this passage, but in the bible it clearly states "man shall not lay down with man". I think that's clear enough.

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